Entrevista a Geoffrey Giuliano, el más polémico biógrafo de la banda
El periodista norteamericano es autor de una decena de libros sobre The Beatles y es uno de los pocos que ha entrevistado al círculo íntimo de la agrupación de Liverpool. Según Giuliano, en vez de relanzar el catálogo beatle remasterizado, “se podrían haber editado los ensayos acústicos del Album Blanco”.
Por Alejandro Tapia C.
Geoffrey Giuliano no sólo es uno de los mayores coleccionistas de la obra musical de The Beatles, sino que durante los últimos años ha sido el más polémico biógrafo de los “Fab Four”. Pese a las críticas contra sus libros, Giuliano tiene el mérito de haber entrevistado a prácticamente la totalidad del círculo íntimo de la banda y también a los propios Beatles. Autor de Revolver,the secret history of The Beatles; The Lost Beatles Interviews; Blackbird: The Life and Times of Paul McCartney; Lennon in America y The Life and Art of George Harrison, entre otras obras, Giuliano conversó con La Tercera acerca del relanzamiento del catálogo Beatle y pasajes desconocidos de la banda.
¿Cómo analiza el relanzamiento de la discografía completa de The Beatles remasterizada?
Soy muy crítico de ese lanzamiento. El imperio de The Beatles, manejado por Paul y Ringo, además de Olivia Harrison y Yoko Ono, ha sido muy conservador. Ellos están interesados en preservar la reputación de The Beatles y su legado cultural. Eso está bien. Sin embargo, considero que les ha faltado creatividad. Nosotros recordamos a The Beatles por ser revolucionarios. Y lo de ahora es lo mismo de siempre. Es marketing.
¿Qué hubiese sido más adecuado?
Si ellos hubiesen querido hacer algo especial, podrían haber lanzado los ensayos del Album Blanco, que se hicieron en la casa de George Harrison en 1968. Ahí, The Beatles hicieron una suerte de unplugged, ya que tocaron el disco completo en versión acústica. Pero ahora McCartney y compañía se fueron a la segura, siendo que The Beatles siempre fueron más allá de los límites.
¿Con el nuevo catálogo beatle se acaban los lanzamientos oficiales?
No, no, no. Esto es como Jimmy Hendrix; dura para siempre. Hay mucho dinero en juego. Pero insisto, las grabaciones en la casa de Harrison son realmente buenas. Pienso que el relanzamiento del catálogo se hizo pensando en las nuevas generaciones y para ellos está bien.
En su libro Lennon in America usted se refiere a la última vez que Lennon y McCartney tocaron juntos, en una casa en Santa Monica en Los Angeles en 1974 ¿Cómo fue aquel “ensayo” cuatro años después de la ruptura de la banda?
Tengo una copia de esa tocata. Ocurrió durante el “Fin de semana perdido” de Lennon. John y Paul entraron en el estudio. Paul se sentó en la batería de Ringo (que también participaba de la fiesta pero justo ese día no se encontraba). En un punto de ese encuentro, Lennon preguntó a viva voz si alguien quería cocaína. Fue una fiesta. Hicieron varias canciones, entre ellas Blue Moon of Kentucky, Stand by Me y Midnight Special. Sin embargo, la mayor parte del tiempo, John se quejó por los problemas de sonido que tenía en sus audífonos. Técnicamente esa ocasión fue la última vez que John y Paul tocaron juntos, aunque sólo lo hicieron por mera diversión. Entiendo que no interpretaron nada de The Beatles.
¿Qué le parece el artículo sobre The Beatles aparecido en el último número de la revista Rolling Stone, en el que se habla del quiebre del grupo a raíz la relación de Yoko Ono con Lennon? Incluso ahí se sostiene que Lennon quería incorporar a Yoko a The Beatles.
Pienso que es absolutamente verdad. En esa época Yoko Ono presionaba sicológicamente a Lennon. Además lo tenía aislado y lo hacía consumir drogas y alucinógenos, lo que influyó en la autoestima de John. Y Lennon la llevaba al estudio todo el tiempo y no se separaban. En defensa de Yoko, mucha gente dice que sin ella no hubiese existido la canción Imagine. Lo que yo creo es que si ella no hubiese estado, hubiésemos tenido 30 años más de The Beatles, como sucede actualmente con The Rolling Stone.
Tras haber escrito los más controvertidos libros sobre The Beatles ¿Cuáles serán sus próximos “golpes”?
He pasado los últimos años juntando cintas que nadie más ha escuchado acerca de Lennon discutiendo sobre la paz. Las publicaré en una caja de cinco cedés, junto a un libro titulado John Lennon man of peace, the lost interviews 1969 (www.johnlennonmanofpeace.com). Este es el tipo de producto que pienso que los Beatles deberían hacer. Algo completamente nuevo. Las canciones remasterizadas están okay, pero son las mismas canciones de siempre.
Entiendo que también prepara una biografía sobre Yoko Ono.
Sí. Lleva por título “La Viuda Negra”. A mi ella no me gusta. Definitivamente ella destruyó a The Beatles. Puedo asegurar que poco antes de que John fuera asesinado, ella quería divorciarse. Esa relación estaba terminada. No se le puede creer a esa mujer cuando habla de amor y paz. Ella ha sido manipuladora, celosa y además, no muy talentosa. Lamentablemente ella tiene todos los derechos de autor sobre John. También pretendo completar mi trilogía sobre John con dos nuevos libros: Lennon in London y Lennon in Liverpool.
Thursday, October 15, 2009
Thursday, September 3, 2009
BLACK WIDOW / YOKO ONO UNAUTHORIZED
“Yoko is a witch!”
George Harrison To The Author 1983
“John used to often tell me to get rid of her in the early days. As far as I am concerned she was, in the vernacular of today, a stalker.”
Tony Bramwell, Lennon Confidant
“If I would have been Hitler’s girlfriend things would have been different.”
Yoko Ono, 1969
Ugh! Geoffrey Giuliano, oh, I don't want to comment on him. If you follow his writings, you know all about him."
Yoko Ono, 2000
COMING IN 2010
Here at last is the bold, uncensored, unauthorized history of one of pop culture’s most controversial and dark divas. As the woman who shattered the Beatles and conquered John Lennon, Ono’s is the archetypal story of mile high ego meeting blind ambition in an explosion of over the top self promotion spanning four colorful decades. Hailing from the privileged upper class of the tawny Tokyo banking world on to the drug fueled art underground of 1960’s New York and London, this self proclaimed “con artist” came, saw and conquered taking with both hands whatever she wanted leaving a tsunami of broken hearts, lives and dreams in her inglorious wake. After the murder of John Lennon in 1980 Ono created a new role for herself, this time as the eternally grieving widow stumping for One World unity in a never ending series of often bizarre, always self aggrandizing so-called “event’s “ and “exhibitions” designed to raise her profile as the new millenniums ‘ “Mrs. Love & Peace.” Whether remixing Lennon’s post Yoko ‘Walls and Brides’ LP – deleting the Beatles loving references to his long time mistress May Pang and insinuating herself – literally- into the mix, re-drawing John’s private doodles for public display and profit, or sparring with young Julian Lennon over his share of the vast Lennon estate Yoko has excelled as the warbling Queen of Mean staking her claim as the unrelenting Ayatollah of John Lennon’s artful legacy and twenty five percent owner of the Beatles evergreen body of work.
Written with the aid of a wealth of unseen, exclusive private, personal and official documents, secret unpublished diaries and Lennon/Ono sex tapes, unpublished diaries, letters and exclusive insider interviews with Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Julian and Cynthia Lennon, Lennon’s sister Julia Baird and his Liverpool family, the Beatles’ intimate Apple staff including Peter Brown and Derek Taylor among many others. Controversial Lennon aid Frederic Seaman also weighs in as does John’s lover May Pang and Lenono staffer George Speerin. Featuring two 16 page inserts of never before published photographs from the private collections of intimate family and friends.
George Harrison To The Author 1983
“John used to often tell me to get rid of her in the early days. As far as I am concerned she was, in the vernacular of today, a stalker.”
Tony Bramwell, Lennon Confidant
“If I would have been Hitler’s girlfriend things would have been different.”
Yoko Ono, 1969
Ugh! Geoffrey Giuliano, oh, I don't want to comment on him. If you follow his writings, you know all about him."
Yoko Ono, 2000
COMING IN 2010
Here at last is the bold, uncensored, unauthorized history of one of pop culture’s most controversial and dark divas. As the woman who shattered the Beatles and conquered John Lennon, Ono’s is the archetypal story of mile high ego meeting blind ambition in an explosion of over the top self promotion spanning four colorful decades. Hailing from the privileged upper class of the tawny Tokyo banking world on to the drug fueled art underground of 1960’s New York and London, this self proclaimed “con artist” came, saw and conquered taking with both hands whatever she wanted leaving a tsunami of broken hearts, lives and dreams in her inglorious wake. After the murder of John Lennon in 1980 Ono created a new role for herself, this time as the eternally grieving widow stumping for One World unity in a never ending series of often bizarre, always self aggrandizing so-called “event’s “ and “exhibitions” designed to raise her profile as the new millenniums ‘ “Mrs. Love & Peace.” Whether remixing Lennon’s post Yoko ‘Walls and Brides’ LP – deleting the Beatles loving references to his long time mistress May Pang and insinuating herself – literally- into the mix, re-drawing John’s private doodles for public display and profit, or sparring with young Julian Lennon over his share of the vast Lennon estate Yoko has excelled as the warbling Queen of Mean staking her claim as the unrelenting Ayatollah of John Lennon’s artful legacy and twenty five percent owner of the Beatles evergreen body of work.
Written with the aid of a wealth of unseen, exclusive private, personal and official documents, secret unpublished diaries and Lennon/Ono sex tapes, unpublished diaries, letters and exclusive insider interviews with Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Julian and Cynthia Lennon, Lennon’s sister Julia Baird and his Liverpool family, the Beatles’ intimate Apple staff including Peter Brown and Derek Taylor among many others. Controversial Lennon aid Frederic Seaman also weighs in as does John’s lover May Pang and Lenono staffer George Speerin. Featuring two 16 page inserts of never before published photographs from the private collections of intimate family and friends.
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
WELL NOW WE KNOW WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO JOHN!
Found This On Google This Afternoon:
John Lennon Plumbing & Heating
90 W Shore Rd
Denville, NJ 07834-1572, United States
(973) 627-6484
John Lennon Plumbing & Heating
90 W Shore Rd
Denville, NJ 07834-1572, United States
(973) 627-6484
Thursday, August 6, 2009
JOHN LENNON MAN OF PEACE 1969-2009
On Peace & Love 1969 / 40 Years Ago Today
“You say you want a revolution you’d better free your mind instead!” - John Lennon ‘Revolution’
NEW LIMITED EDITION 'MAN OF PEACE' GIFT BAG RELEASED TO CELEBRATE THE 40th ANNIVERSARY OF LENNON'S ICONIC INTERNATIONAL PEACE CRUSADE
The 'Man Of Peace Gift Bag' includes a specially designed vinyl shoulder bag. The deluxe signed and numbered limited edition 5 CD interview audio book boxset “John Lennon / Man Of Peace: The Lost Interviews 1969 : A 350 page trade paperback edition of Geoffrey & Avalon Giuliano’s latest work. An exclusive 30 page illustrated color booklet. A previously unpublished museum quality 8 X 10 photographic print of Lennon from 1969 signed & numbered by the authors. Plus a beautiful button & bumper sticker.
In this previously unreleased six plus hour five CD collection of John Lennon’s unique wit and wisdom the iconic Beatle introduces the world to his stirring non-violent philosophy to not only end, the then, raging Vietnam war, but also the deeply rooted violence within ourselves, a timely message especially important today in this world of seemingly endless international terror and conflict. Professionally recorded in Britain, Austria, Canada and Holland in 1969 the interviews are the complete record of Lennon’s turbulent ‘Give Peace A Chance’ days interspersed with relevant historical comments and reflections by celebrated Beatles author & historian Geoffrey Giuliano. Only recently discovered, these original, previously unreleased tapes of John Lennon (recorded exactly forty years ago) ring as true today in our almost hopelessly war torn world as they did during the now iconic ‘summer of love / days of rage’ era in which they were recorded. Here is history in your hands – as touching and funny as it is moving and overwhelming in its elegant philosophical simplicity. A powerful audio manifesto for the ages and a light for successive generations in this increasingly dark world. This is John Lennon / Man Of Peace!
TO LEARN MORE ABOUT JOHN LENNON'S ICONIC
INTERNATIONAL PEACE CRUSADE OF 1969 OR TO
ORDER YOUR 'MAN OF PEACE GIFT BAG' PLEASE VISIT:
http://www.johnlennonmanofpeace.com
VINTAGE LENNONSPEAK CIRCA 69
VIOLENCE BEGETS VIOLENCE
It doesn't help murderers to hang them, it doesn't help violent people to be violent to them. Violence begets violence. You can't kill off all the violent people or all the murderers or you'd have to kill off the government.
GOD IS WITHIN
We're all God, I'm not A god or THE god, but we're all God and we're all potentially divine and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, there is a power we can all tap. God is a power and we're all light bulbs that can tap the electricity - you can use electricity to kill people or to light the room. God is that.
I don't need to go to church, people who need a church should go. Others feel the church is in their head. They should visit that temple because that's where the source is.
MEDITATION & DRUGS
Meditation I still believe in and occasionally use it... I don't regret drugs because they helped me - I don't advocate them because I don't think I should, but for me it was good.
THE SIXTIES FORTELL THE FUTURE
I’m full of optimism because of the contacts I’ve made throughout the world, knowing there’s other people I can agree with. I’m not insane and I’m not alone. That’s on a personal level. And of course Woodstock, the Isle of Wight [music festivals] all the mass meetings of the youth is completely positive for me, we’re all showing our flags. And when you show your flag you’re not alone.
There’s no need to be a few Christian martyrs because there’s lots of us. Don’t be afraid because they do look after you, whoever’s up there, if you get on with it. This is only the beginning - this '60s bit was just a sniff, the '60s were just waking up in the morning and we haven’t even got to dinner time yet and I can’t wait. I’m so glad to be around and it’s going to be great and there’s going to be more and more of us, and whatever you’re thinking there Mrs Grundy of South Birmingham on toast, you don’t stand a chance, (A) You’re not going to be there when we’re running it and (B) you’re gonna like it when you get less frightened of it. Whoever they are, don’t stand a chance because they can’t beat love, because all those old bits from religion about love being all powerful is true, and that’s the bit they can’t do, they can’t handle it.
PEACE AS A PRODUCT
We’re just saying SELL PEACE, anybody interested in peace just stick it in the window. It’s simple but it lets somebody else know that you want peace too, because you feel alone if you’re the only one thinking ‘wouldn’t it be nice if there was peace and nobody was getting killed', so advertise you’re for peace if you believe in it.
BAGISM
What’s Bagism? It’s like...a tag for what we all do. We’re all in a bag and we realized that we came from two bags, I was in this pop bag going round and round in my little clique, and she was in her little avant-garde clique going round and round. We all come out and look at each other every now and then, but we don’t communicate. We all intellectualize about how there is no barrier between art, music, poetry... I’m a rock and roller, he’s a poet... so we just came up with the word so you would ask us what bagism is, and we’d say WE’RE ALL IN A BAG BABY! Well we got out of one bag and into the next, you just keep moving from bag to bag. If people did interviews for jobs in a bag they wouldn’t get turned away because they were black or green or had long hair, it’s total communication... Well no, if that was specified that when you interviewed the people you wanted to employ, and you had this prejudice, and the people had to wear a bag - then you'd only judge them on what they communicated to you, and You wouldn't have to think, 'Oh he's wearing black suede is he, I don't like it'.
THE PEACE VOTE
We want set up a worldwide vote: War or Peace, which do you want? When all these politicians are galloping around with "84% want hanging" and "200% don't like blacks" and that bit, well we'll have "35 million say No War!", just a positive move and somewhere where the youth can send their vibe.”..
DISARM THE ESTABLISHMENT WITH GENTLE HUMOR
"The establishment irritates you to make you fight because once they've got you violent they know how to handle you. The only thing they don't know how to handle is non-violence and humor.... Change people first, even if it's to tell people that YOU are the government and take no notice of the government, sit down ok, don't do anything, with your help it'll work, with everybody's help it'll work, all we've got to do is turn people on to the fact they THEY ARE the government NOW and they have the power NOW.
WAR AND PEACE
People ask us why we are doing this peace kick. What else? We got the fame and the money and the things that we were supposed to do, and what else is there? We're going to spend the rest of our life doing what? Eating and what? There's nothing else to do. There's two alternatives, war or peace.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT
We are diet fanatics and continually talk about, "Read the packet before you eat it", on that level, apart from polluting the air, and we know -- I saw some guy on T.V. here who's invented a detergent that doesn't do whatever detergents do, and how he took it 'round to all the Big Three who were all frightened of each other, just like countries, and didn't do anything in case the other did something, and so this guy's going to do it on his own, you know, and the only way to get the Big Three interested is to make it commercial for them, like I was saying about the pot, you know. Let them have what they want, you know, if that's what they want, but we mustn't be poisoned. It's insanity. We are always talking to people to just read the packet, all that colouring, chemical additive, we think is bad for you. We try not to eat any of it. It's pretty hard, but we try not to eat any of it and we are always talking about that, of course, to people, and another myth about there not being enough food. There's another myth that must be shattered, because there is enough food and enough -- then the other one -- you say "Well, there might be enough food, but there's no transport". I mean, it's a joke. There is enough food. There's enough food in each city to feed each city in the West. There should be nobody starving in Montreal or Toronto for any reason on earth, or in London, and we can certainly feed India. Instead of handing a few -- the Indian Mafia two million pounds and to give them two handfuls of rice and keep it all, and all the rest of the (inaudible) and the jazz that goes on with all the international charities.
THE DYNAMICS OF LOVE
"The gift is a grace", but it's like a precious plant, you can't sit on it and you must protect it, nurture it and feed it, like an animal; otherwise it changes into something else, and another thing that society does to the married couple, that institution which people are, afraid of dying, is split them straight away. The man-woman joke about the woman make the bread and the man go and hunt the animals. There's no need any more of splitting the family. The family can be resurrected, and marriage, if society was built around a family and not built 'round - if two people are married the man has to go to this place. I know this is a hard thing. This is way ahead, but the fact that they split you as soon as you are together, no marriage stands a chance against those odds of all the goodies around, all the other sexual attractions around, all the people with nothing better to do, and that's, I think, what happened to marriage or "love", or whatever we call it. The family is the greatest thing. We saw this documentary in England of a woman native of a tribe in Africa before the Christians got them, and the tribe - pretty peaceful people, non-aggressive. They fight when attacked. They hunt just enough, et cetera et cetera, but one amazing thing was that all the children don't fight, and don't get into trouble Tommy. All the kids followed the parents like ducks and their babies, and the secret was that the mother didn't let go of the child until the child wanted to. Now, this sounds crazy in this situation that we are in today, but the fact that the mother held on to the child until the child itself wanted to explore -- they invented something and she carried it like an Indian. All these kids and -- there was not -- the mother was busy doing her job, and the kids were just playing there and maybe they only showed the good part of the film, but there was something in the fact that the child wasn't brought out of that security and thrown into a little plastic box half a mile down the road. Surely we can invent something that makes room if the mother can't possibly be with it all the time. Surely we can invent an environment for a baby that gives that basic security.
THE SOVENTRY OF LSD
I think LSD should be looked into and decided what can be done with it. The establishment got so frightened of it, and with these cases of people jumping out of the window, they just pretend it doesn't exist, or try and hide it. There's no way of controlling it, unless they do find out what it's about, it's going to go on and on and I personally would never condemn it from my own experience, but I condemn the free use of it. I think it could possibly be made available under supervision. I've met people who have been supervised on LSD in a plastic white room with a doctor looking like some spaceman. The hallucinations are all of their own making. If you stick a person in a room and frighten him, he will come out of that experience frightened for maybe the rest of his life, or for at least a few months. If you put a man in a room and are kind to him, he will come out with that experience, and I don't know about LSD. I don't think it should be made available. It should be found out about. I think there's great possibilities for all of us, especially for sick people, sick in the mind, and paranoid people and schizophrenia but I don't really know enough about it, only from my own experiences, but I have been both ways on trips, and the effect does last and it's profound, and it is forever. There's no going back once you have it. The only way you get off a bad trip is to dive in the water again and learn how to swim , but some people can't and they are the ones that are lost until somebody would change them. I can only imagine a situation where, sort of -- I don't know, specialists -- if there are no side effects I don't know what the propaganda is. I don't accept it because I don't know that they've really found out much about it. I think it probably does burn your head off, because -- I stopped using it because it did burn my head off, and, of course, now there's bad drugs going 'round. You can't even trust the drugs that come because people are selling acid that has got God knows what in it. The only thing I have to say about marijuana -- I can't imagine people going out for a joint in the afternoon any more than I can imagine people drinking in the afternoon. I think it's equally bad, and driving and all the other things, the restrictions on drinks, that's the danger, but the one thing can be said about marijuana is it's non-violent, and if any Government wanted to use it to calm the people, they have got the ultimate weapon, and there wouldn't be any Saturday night crowds and any Saturday night football fights, because that's what it does to people. They either withdraw because they're too -- it can make you paranoiac all right, and you withdraw, but you certainly don't have any aggression. I think LSD promoted the non-violent movement, including LSD, but marijuana was the main thing that promoted non-violence amongst the youth, because as soon as they have it, they -- first of all you have to laugh on your first experiences. There's nothing else you do but laugh, and then, when you've got over that and you realize that people aren't laughing at you, but with you, it's a community thing, and nothing would ever stop it, nothing on earth is going to stop it, and the only thing to do is to find out how to use it for good, or for the best. That would never happen. That's never happened before I because there hasn't been people smoking marijuana before in that vast (inaudible). There's never been crowds like that for anything else but violence or war, even if it's a football match.
CHINA WORRIES
We have to talk to China. You can't have the paranoiac person like China in your midst carrying a gun and just try and block him off. Especially when he's so big, and it's only our fear that makes him more fearful. He's only -- if you could think of China as one person -- he's only a completely paranoid guy that's had a tough time from his neighbours for a few years. He is the left-wing revolutionary with a gun. He is the guy that's going on dropping bombs in the street and all we ever do is say, "You make one move and we'll really whip you boy. We'll really whip you", and that's all they ever get, and we have to start talking to each other. And I think -- if it's the West that starts talking first, if our kids are the ones that get turned on and we grow up to be the Establishment, which we nearly are -- we're all in our thirties, the early people are nearly the Establishment already, so if you lot don't do it and the bomb doesn't come, because if the bomb comes, well, that's it anyway -- nobody's worried about the bomb any more -- so, if you don't hurry up, well, we'll do it, and if it's the West that says, "Come on now, come on", and trips China out or whatever it is, you must extend a hand to a -- to a mental patient. We mustn't treat them like we're still treating our mental patients, locking them up and torturing them and letting any soft Mick (?) attend them and beat them up and take out aggression, and the world will only change when we talk to each other, and straight. All that jazz about what sized table. And we honestly think a place like Canada looks like the only hope, because the only hope or help we've had is from Canada. The only real help we've had, and the only people like you that we've ever been approached by or the only people we've heard of that are doing anything like this, is going on in Canada, and Canada is America without being American, without that mighty -- we are the mighty whatever scene and the only hope is for a country like Canada that has the wealth and all the cars and all the whatever it is that we all seem to think we want, and to show -- lead. This is the opportunity for Canada to lead the world - This is it, and the youth are -- just in youth talk it's like -- when you mention Canada it isn't like "What! Australia!". That image is changing. You sell a country on image, like the Greeks, desperate to have an image, you know, and -- image is how we sell our cigarettes and Coca-Cola, and Canada's image is just about getting groovy, you know.
So, if people have -- let Canada be the hope. Don't take instructions from Britain. Let Canada lead.
“You say you want a revolution you’d better free your mind instead!” - John Lennon ‘Revolution’
NEW LIMITED EDITION 'MAN OF PEACE' GIFT BAG RELEASED TO CELEBRATE THE 40th ANNIVERSARY OF LENNON'S ICONIC INTERNATIONAL PEACE CRUSADE
The 'Man Of Peace Gift Bag' includes a specially designed vinyl shoulder bag. The deluxe signed and numbered limited edition 5 CD interview audio book boxset “John Lennon / Man Of Peace: The Lost Interviews 1969 : A 350 page trade paperback edition of Geoffrey & Avalon Giuliano’s latest work. An exclusive 30 page illustrated color booklet. A previously unpublished museum quality 8 X 10 photographic print of Lennon from 1969 signed & numbered by the authors. Plus a beautiful button & bumper sticker.
In this previously unreleased six plus hour five CD collection of John Lennon’s unique wit and wisdom the iconic Beatle introduces the world to his stirring non-violent philosophy to not only end, the then, raging Vietnam war, but also the deeply rooted violence within ourselves, a timely message especially important today in this world of seemingly endless international terror and conflict. Professionally recorded in Britain, Austria, Canada and Holland in 1969 the interviews are the complete record of Lennon’s turbulent ‘Give Peace A Chance’ days interspersed with relevant historical comments and reflections by celebrated Beatles author & historian Geoffrey Giuliano. Only recently discovered, these original, previously unreleased tapes of John Lennon (recorded exactly forty years ago) ring as true today in our almost hopelessly war torn world as they did during the now iconic ‘summer of love / days of rage’ era in which they were recorded. Here is history in your hands – as touching and funny as it is moving and overwhelming in its elegant philosophical simplicity. A powerful audio manifesto for the ages and a light for successive generations in this increasingly dark world. This is John Lennon / Man Of Peace!
TO LEARN MORE ABOUT JOHN LENNON'S ICONIC
INTERNATIONAL PEACE CRUSADE OF 1969 OR TO
ORDER YOUR 'MAN OF PEACE GIFT BAG' PLEASE VISIT:
http://www.johnlennonmanofpeace.com
VINTAGE LENNONSPEAK CIRCA 69
VIOLENCE BEGETS VIOLENCE
It doesn't help murderers to hang them, it doesn't help violent people to be violent to them. Violence begets violence. You can't kill off all the violent people or all the murderers or you'd have to kill off the government.
GOD IS WITHIN
We're all God, I'm not A god or THE god, but we're all God and we're all potentially divine and potentially evil. We all have everything within us, there is a power we can all tap. God is a power and we're all light bulbs that can tap the electricity - you can use electricity to kill people or to light the room. God is that.
I don't need to go to church, people who need a church should go. Others feel the church is in their head. They should visit that temple because that's where the source is.
MEDITATION & DRUGS
Meditation I still believe in and occasionally use it... I don't regret drugs because they helped me - I don't advocate them because I don't think I should, but for me it was good.
THE SIXTIES FORTELL THE FUTURE
I’m full of optimism because of the contacts I’ve made throughout the world, knowing there’s other people I can agree with. I’m not insane and I’m not alone. That’s on a personal level. And of course Woodstock, the Isle of Wight [music festivals] all the mass meetings of the youth is completely positive for me, we’re all showing our flags. And when you show your flag you’re not alone.
There’s no need to be a few Christian martyrs because there’s lots of us. Don’t be afraid because they do look after you, whoever’s up there, if you get on with it. This is only the beginning - this '60s bit was just a sniff, the '60s were just waking up in the morning and we haven’t even got to dinner time yet and I can’t wait. I’m so glad to be around and it’s going to be great and there’s going to be more and more of us, and whatever you’re thinking there Mrs Grundy of South Birmingham on toast, you don’t stand a chance, (A) You’re not going to be there when we’re running it and (B) you’re gonna like it when you get less frightened of it. Whoever they are, don’t stand a chance because they can’t beat love, because all those old bits from religion about love being all powerful is true, and that’s the bit they can’t do, they can’t handle it.
PEACE AS A PRODUCT
We’re just saying SELL PEACE, anybody interested in peace just stick it in the window. It’s simple but it lets somebody else know that you want peace too, because you feel alone if you’re the only one thinking ‘wouldn’t it be nice if there was peace and nobody was getting killed', so advertise you’re for peace if you believe in it.
BAGISM
What’s Bagism? It’s like...a tag for what we all do. We’re all in a bag and we realized that we came from two bags, I was in this pop bag going round and round in my little clique, and she was in her little avant-garde clique going round and round. We all come out and look at each other every now and then, but we don’t communicate. We all intellectualize about how there is no barrier between art, music, poetry... I’m a rock and roller, he’s a poet... so we just came up with the word so you would ask us what bagism is, and we’d say WE’RE ALL IN A BAG BABY! Well we got out of one bag and into the next, you just keep moving from bag to bag. If people did interviews for jobs in a bag they wouldn’t get turned away because they were black or green or had long hair, it’s total communication... Well no, if that was specified that when you interviewed the people you wanted to employ, and you had this prejudice, and the people had to wear a bag - then you'd only judge them on what they communicated to you, and You wouldn't have to think, 'Oh he's wearing black suede is he, I don't like it'.
THE PEACE VOTE
We want set up a worldwide vote: War or Peace, which do you want? When all these politicians are galloping around with "84% want hanging" and "200% don't like blacks" and that bit, well we'll have "35 million say No War!", just a positive move and somewhere where the youth can send their vibe.”..
DISARM THE ESTABLISHMENT WITH GENTLE HUMOR
"The establishment irritates you to make you fight because once they've got you violent they know how to handle you. The only thing they don't know how to handle is non-violence and humor.... Change people first, even if it's to tell people that YOU are the government and take no notice of the government, sit down ok, don't do anything, with your help it'll work, with everybody's help it'll work, all we've got to do is turn people on to the fact they THEY ARE the government NOW and they have the power NOW.
WAR AND PEACE
People ask us why we are doing this peace kick. What else? We got the fame and the money and the things that we were supposed to do, and what else is there? We're going to spend the rest of our life doing what? Eating and what? There's nothing else to do. There's two alternatives, war or peace.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT
We are diet fanatics and continually talk about, "Read the packet before you eat it", on that level, apart from polluting the air, and we know -- I saw some guy on T.V. here who's invented a detergent that doesn't do whatever detergents do, and how he took it 'round to all the Big Three who were all frightened of each other, just like countries, and didn't do anything in case the other did something, and so this guy's going to do it on his own, you know, and the only way to get the Big Three interested is to make it commercial for them, like I was saying about the pot, you know. Let them have what they want, you know, if that's what they want, but we mustn't be poisoned. It's insanity. We are always talking to people to just read the packet, all that colouring, chemical additive, we think is bad for you. We try not to eat any of it. It's pretty hard, but we try not to eat any of it and we are always talking about that, of course, to people, and another myth about there not being enough food. There's another myth that must be shattered, because there is enough food and enough -- then the other one -- you say "Well, there might be enough food, but there's no transport". I mean, it's a joke. There is enough food. There's enough food in each city to feed each city in the West. There should be nobody starving in Montreal or Toronto for any reason on earth, or in London, and we can certainly feed India. Instead of handing a few -- the Indian Mafia two million pounds and to give them two handfuls of rice and keep it all, and all the rest of the (inaudible) and the jazz that goes on with all the international charities.
THE DYNAMICS OF LOVE
"The gift is a grace", but it's like a precious plant, you can't sit on it and you must protect it, nurture it and feed it, like an animal; otherwise it changes into something else, and another thing that society does to the married couple, that institution which people are, afraid of dying, is split them straight away. The man-woman joke about the woman make the bread and the man go and hunt the animals. There's no need any more of splitting the family. The family can be resurrected, and marriage, if society was built around a family and not built 'round - if two people are married the man has to go to this place. I know this is a hard thing. This is way ahead, but the fact that they split you as soon as you are together, no marriage stands a chance against those odds of all the goodies around, all the other sexual attractions around, all the people with nothing better to do, and that's, I think, what happened to marriage or "love", or whatever we call it. The family is the greatest thing. We saw this documentary in England of a woman native of a tribe in Africa before the Christians got them, and the tribe - pretty peaceful people, non-aggressive. They fight when attacked. They hunt just enough, et cetera et cetera, but one amazing thing was that all the children don't fight, and don't get into trouble Tommy. All the kids followed the parents like ducks and their babies, and the secret was that the mother didn't let go of the child until the child wanted to. Now, this sounds crazy in this situation that we are in today, but the fact that the mother held on to the child until the child itself wanted to explore -- they invented something and she carried it like an Indian. All these kids and -- there was not -- the mother was busy doing her job, and the kids were just playing there and maybe they only showed the good part of the film, but there was something in the fact that the child wasn't brought out of that security and thrown into a little plastic box half a mile down the road. Surely we can invent something that makes room if the mother can't possibly be with it all the time. Surely we can invent an environment for a baby that gives that basic security.
THE SOVENTRY OF LSD
I think LSD should be looked into and decided what can be done with it. The establishment got so frightened of it, and with these cases of people jumping out of the window, they just pretend it doesn't exist, or try and hide it. There's no way of controlling it, unless they do find out what it's about, it's going to go on and on and I personally would never condemn it from my own experience, but I condemn the free use of it. I think it could possibly be made available under supervision. I've met people who have been supervised on LSD in a plastic white room with a doctor looking like some spaceman. The hallucinations are all of their own making. If you stick a person in a room and frighten him, he will come out of that experience frightened for maybe the rest of his life, or for at least a few months. If you put a man in a room and are kind to him, he will come out with that experience, and I don't know about LSD. I don't think it should be made available. It should be found out about. I think there's great possibilities for all of us, especially for sick people, sick in the mind, and paranoid people and schizophrenia but I don't really know enough about it, only from my own experiences, but I have been both ways on trips, and the effect does last and it's profound, and it is forever. There's no going back once you have it. The only way you get off a bad trip is to dive in the water again and learn how to swim , but some people can't and they are the ones that are lost until somebody would change them. I can only imagine a situation where, sort of -- I don't know, specialists -- if there are no side effects I don't know what the propaganda is. I don't accept it because I don't know that they've really found out much about it. I think it probably does burn your head off, because -- I stopped using it because it did burn my head off, and, of course, now there's bad drugs going 'round. You can't even trust the drugs that come because people are selling acid that has got God knows what in it. The only thing I have to say about marijuana -- I can't imagine people going out for a joint in the afternoon any more than I can imagine people drinking in the afternoon. I think it's equally bad, and driving and all the other things, the restrictions on drinks, that's the danger, but the one thing can be said about marijuana is it's non-violent, and if any Government wanted to use it to calm the people, they have got the ultimate weapon, and there wouldn't be any Saturday night crowds and any Saturday night football fights, because that's what it does to people. They either withdraw because they're too -- it can make you paranoiac all right, and you withdraw, but you certainly don't have any aggression. I think LSD promoted the non-violent movement, including LSD, but marijuana was the main thing that promoted non-violence amongst the youth, because as soon as they have it, they -- first of all you have to laugh on your first experiences. There's nothing else you do but laugh, and then, when you've got over that and you realize that people aren't laughing at you, but with you, it's a community thing, and nothing would ever stop it, nothing on earth is going to stop it, and the only thing to do is to find out how to use it for good, or for the best. That would never happen. That's never happened before I because there hasn't been people smoking marijuana before in that vast (inaudible). There's never been crowds like that for anything else but violence or war, even if it's a football match.
CHINA WORRIES
We have to talk to China. You can't have the paranoiac person like China in your midst carrying a gun and just try and block him off. Especially when he's so big, and it's only our fear that makes him more fearful. He's only -- if you could think of China as one person -- he's only a completely paranoid guy that's had a tough time from his neighbours for a few years. He is the left-wing revolutionary with a gun. He is the guy that's going on dropping bombs in the street and all we ever do is say, "You make one move and we'll really whip you boy. We'll really whip you", and that's all they ever get, and we have to start talking to each other. And I think -- if it's the West that starts talking first, if our kids are the ones that get turned on and we grow up to be the Establishment, which we nearly are -- we're all in our thirties, the early people are nearly the Establishment already, so if you lot don't do it and the bomb doesn't come, because if the bomb comes, well, that's it anyway -- nobody's worried about the bomb any more -- so, if you don't hurry up, well, we'll do it, and if it's the West that says, "Come on now, come on", and trips China out or whatever it is, you must extend a hand to a -- to a mental patient. We mustn't treat them like we're still treating our mental patients, locking them up and torturing them and letting any soft Mick (?) attend them and beat them up and take out aggression, and the world will only change when we talk to each other, and straight. All that jazz about what sized table. And we honestly think a place like Canada looks like the only hope, because the only hope or help we've had is from Canada. The only real help we've had, and the only people like you that we've ever been approached by or the only people we've heard of that are doing anything like this, is going on in Canada, and Canada is America without being American, without that mighty -- we are the mighty whatever scene and the only hope is for a country like Canada that has the wealth and all the cars and all the whatever it is that we all seem to think we want, and to show -- lead. This is the opportunity for Canada to lead the world - This is it, and the youth are -- just in youth talk it's like -- when you mention Canada it isn't like "What! Australia!". That image is changing. You sell a country on image, like the Greeks, desperate to have an image, you know, and -- image is how we sell our cigarettes and Coca-Cola, and Canada's image is just about getting groovy, you know.
So, if people have -- let Canada be the hope. Don't take instructions from Britain. Let Canada lead.
THE BEATLE POLITIC / VEGETARIANISM IN ACTION: GEOFFREY GIULIANO SPEAKS WITH THE LONDON TIMES
THE BEATLE POLITIC is an occassional series in which various themes in the Beatles music and personal lives is examined from a political point of view. The impact of the Beatles was more far reaching than simply four guys making great music but also encompassed many brave new ideas to their generation - animal rights and vegetarianism amongst them.
In mid 1980 Geoffrey Giuliano, his then wife Brenda (Vrnda Devi), their two young children, Sesa and Devin, moved to Toronto, Canada where Geoffrey signed on with McDonalds to portray Ronald McDonald in Canada via Vickers & Benson Advertising. He did the job for about a year and a bit. As time went on Giuliano’s ethical vegetarianism and the dubious goings-ons at McDonalds Corp wore away at him and he left. He was given $5000, presumably to keep his mouth shut, but it didn’t work! Since 1990 Giuliano has freely shared his thoughts about the controversial corporate juggernaught with countless media outlets around the globe. In this indepth 1997 interview conducted in St. John’s Wood, London, held to promote the upcoming McLiable case brewing at the time. Giuliano kept nothing back as he held forth on his slippery times as the world’s most famous clown prince of meat eating.
THE LONDON TIMES INTERVIEW 1997
Question: Are you the "original" Ronald McDonald?
Geoffrey Giuliano: No. The first Ronald is a silly weatherman on NBC named Willard Scott.
Question: How many years did you do it?
Giuliano: It was basically a year and a half. I was the Burger King for just under a year before that in New England. That was a very professional traveling show rather like old time Vaudeville.
Question: Was being Ronald a full time job?
Giuliano: Oh, yeah. I worked at an ad agency, Vickers & Benson in Toronto. I was way up on the 30th floor and had my own window office. One of the first things that struck me was that the executive core of McDonald's and their advertising agency don't eat McDonald's food! They had a cordon bleu chef - you called them up and they would make you whatever you wanted! I also had to do a lot of traveling to gigs in my very own super RV.
Question: What was the background to you being Ronald McDonald and was there a particular moment when you realized that you'd had enough?
Giuliano: I was pretty much fresh out of drama school (SUNY Brockport) and I had really big ideas that the Ronald McDonald Safety Show would help children not to drink bleach and set themselves on fire and things, so I learned it and did it. Then one day, as I was in the dressing room I found a memorandum from one of the McDonald's executives saying: 'To all personnel re: The Ronald McDonald Safety Show, the purpose of this show is to increase the public's awareness and especially young peoples' awareness of McDonald's goods and services'. I thought, gee, I thought it was to help kids!'The purpose of this show is to increase the public's awareness and especially the young peoples' awareness of McDonald's goods and services'. I thought, gee, I thought it was to help kids. The whole act was pretty corny and unbelievable from the start. The story, as we told it, was that hamburgers have nothing to do with a dead cow, that they grow in a happy little patch and you just go and pluck them with the Hamburglar and all the other moronic McDonaldland characters. They cloaked this wholesale slaughter of innocent animals in fairytales and PR. I once went to the McChicken plant where they "prepare" the chickens to make McNuggets. The chickens at one end are alive and come out dead at the other end. It smelled terrible. And there was a slippery goo on the floor. You knew this was a place of death. I remember taking a ride with George Cowan, the President of McDonald's of Canada from gig to gig because I was something he liked to show off, "the" Ronald McDonald. He kept hitting on all the young girls who worked at the "stores." I had a big fat book of unlimited account cards and such, the best make up, the best of everything. Including this goofy 30th floor office with a sexy secretary named Lynne. I used to go in the office, I had absolutely nothing to do, but I had the office and thekey to the executive washroom. It was just madness, cheap, sullied and dirty. You could feel the dirt, and everybody just took with both hands. After awhile it got to be too much and my conscience got the better of me. Things started to eat away at me, and over a few months, I decided "I can't do this anymore, this is sick and pointless". I realized that there would be karmic consequences for me if I stayed. One of them would be that I would make a lot of money. In fact, my mother was once standing with one of the big executives, John at McDonald's of Canada and he said to her, "We expect great things from Geoffrey". I thought to myself, "look, after about a year and a half, that's enough, take this job and shove it! I was out of work for a long time, which was tough, but they gave me a golden hand shake. Since I've 'come out of the closet' as an ethical veggie, now they make the other Ronald’s sign a document promising not to tell, and they give you some blood money if you keep your mouth shut. They gave me five thousand Canadian dollars and I just took off. As for my personal campaign against them, I was lying at home unemployed one day and I saw the Marlboro Man on TV. He was dying of lung cancer from smoking and he was doing an anti-smoking ad. I thought "wait a minute, what a great thing this is." When I did a speech in Toronto at the Vegetarian Food Fair I did my usual rabble-rousing. The next day Simon Halls, a spokesperson for McDonald's of Canada said in the Toronto Star "Guiliano has a right to his opinion. In fact we like vegetarians, we serve chicken and fish on our menu." Chicken and fish! Now, the last time I checked they were not vegetables. Half the time they don't even know what the hell they're talking about, but they don't care. I was talking to one of the marketing guys once and I said, "Do you think this is really good enough, do you think people will like it?" He said "You don't get it do you? You understand how it really works? We put shit out there and people buy it if you put enough money into the advertising."
Question: What do McDonald's think of you now?
Giuliano: Well, they have publicly said that, "Mr Guiliano has a right to his opinions and views and we obviously have a right to conduct our business", which is absolutely correct. Perhaps I flatter myself, my suspicion is that I'm public enemy number one in the US. The big problem is I haven't had as wide an access to the media as I might have if the McDonald's advertising dollar wasn't so powerful. For example, there was a local paper in western New York that did a story on me, and the owner of two McDonald's, one of the biggest concerns in the area, threatened to pull all his advertising if they went ahead. They did.
Yeah, that stuff goes on, you know, this is like a cold war at times, I've had death threats. I've had kidnapping threats. I'm not suggesting they came from McDonald's, but it certainly came from someone with a vested interest in keeping this game going and not being exposed for the murderers they are.
Question: May I ask you for a brief summary of your act?
Giuliano: I took my degrees as a Shakespearean actor. It's kind of a dip down, you know, from being the youngest actor in repertoire in the United States to ever play Macbeth to have my first professional gig as Ronald McDonald! I used to come on, "Hi everybody, this is Ronald McDonald, and boy oh boy, we're gonna have a lot of fun today, we're gonna sing songs, tell stories and learn about safety too. Would you like that"? I put everything into that character that any respectable actor would put into playing Richard III, it was important to me to do a good job. One thing I should tell you, no expense is spared in training Ronald. I'm a graduate of McDonald's University in Chicago and I'm also a graduate of Mark Wilson Productions (an old magician from the 50’s), first for Burger King, then for the McDonald's corp. I had dance teachers and I the best people training me. I also had to undergo unofficial psychological testing. When you sit that kid up on your knee they don't want to find out later that you are a child molester! Amoral promoter of wholesale slaughter, no problem, just don't touch the kids knees! I'm happy to report that I passed all the tests with flying colors. I once went to a town called Bellevue, Ontario and they let school out for the day and there were literally 15-20 thousand kids, my road manager called it Ronaldstock. I had one little microphone and did corny little 'needle through a balloon' magic tricks and stuff. Nobody could see or hear anything but, I mean, I was like a national hero, it was as if the President had come to town. All for Ronald McDonald. That's the kind of hero worship that takes good money to buy, you have pay for that. It's called brain-washing, and you gotta start young. It's like what the Jesuits say, "Give them to us before they're five and they'll be ours for life."
Question: Do you think McDonald's have a specific strategy in appealing to kids?
Giuliano: I was never allowed to eat the food, because that would be unseemly and could smudge the make-up. They don't really like you to think of it as food, it's fun! One thing they did say to me is that the people who control the disposable income aren't mummy and daddy, it's the kids you have to appeal to. They are the ones that say, "We want to go to McDonald's.' The majority of the kids I ran across were not aware that what they were eating had anything to do with a ground up dead animals.
Question: So you weren't allowed to advocate McDonald's products, how then did the kids relate to them?
Giuliano: The McDonaldland characters, I've forgotten all their names, it was so stupid, but we were told if they asked where the food came from that the hamburgers grow in a patch with the French fries next to them, it was really whacked, and the McDonaldland characters were as close as we were allowed to get to the facts. The only grain of truth in those characters was the one called the Hamburglar - he was a criminal who used to steal all the hamburgers. Maybe that was some sort of perverse reflection of the corporate McDonalds mentality. They were all subservient in the court of Ronald, the King, the Monarch of Meat , myself. I was the only one allowed to talk - you had to be highly trained to talk.
Question: So what did you do if kids asked you what hamburgers were made of?
Giuliano: As I said, you were never overtly allowed to mention food or where it came from. It was cloaked in razzmatazz - hamburgers came from a hamburger patch and you picked them. Of course, kids know that if it grows in a patch and you pick it, it's a vegetable. What does that tell you? It tells you they know there's something distasteful there, so they sugar coat it so people don't really put two and two together. How stupid are we as a society that we don't even understand that a hamburger is a dead cow? McDonald’s keeps it one step removed from reality. If they can keep you one step away from the truth and keep you stupid, you'll keep coming back.
Question: How did you get on with the McDonald's executives?
Giuliano: The McDonald's executives, by and large, were goofy, nerdy guys and girls, uptight, square, penny loafer-type human persons. I felt they were high class, highly paid losers. They weren't hip, aware, inquisitive, introspective people. They were just surface little chatty wind up corporate monkeys. Hey, that was a good soundbite! In the end, when I left, the executives said, "Well, go ahead, go, because you're not McDonaldised enough anyway." What the hell does that mean, "not McDonaldised enough"? It's rather like "not being enough of a Nazi". I don't know exactly what it means, but I'm glad I'm not and that I wasn't! I felt like the Pied Piper, except that I was leading the kids into a life of bad food, bad health and bad karma!
Question: How do you and how did you see your relationship to these children?
Giuliano: Well, there's no question that I was manipulating these children. I was a highly paid, highly trained, highly polished actor. Every show was a performance and I had a mandate to get that message out there, and yeah, it was not too hard - anybody can manipulate a child. I just went home one night, and I said "I cannot do this, I can't live with myself if I continue to do this"
Every show was a performance and I had a mandate to get that message out there and yeah, it was not too hard - anybody can manipulate a child you know.
Question: So do you feel that you were in turn manipulated by McDonald's?
Giuliano: I was a young guy on the make, I was just out of drama school, I was the hot shot actor in college, and I thought I was going to be the next Robert De Niro (not!). It turned out I was the next Ronald McDonald. It was mutual, I was just looking for a job.
Question: What do you think now when you see Ronald McDonald on television?
Giuliano: When I see Ronald on TV now, the first thing I think is, "that poor sap needs a fucking job". I just think what a crying shame it is. We could at least lay it on the table, tell the kids what the food is, what they're really eating. Instead we get this fake smiling image. It's what McDonald's makes money on and that's all they're after. Ronald himself, the deification or Godhead of meat eating is just a cover for their greed. Like their charities, the Ronald McDonald Houses. They care about as much for dying kids as they do for live ones! They only care about the money, just money. commerce in it's most brazen, unfeeling, uncompassionate form. They can hoodwink the public with their Ronald McDonald House for dying children and their families, but not me. It's just a hollow attempt to make money, for anyone with any insight. You can see that they're just trying to put on a good front, you know. It's rather like Nazi propaganda. It could even be offensive to someone who sees this for me to compare McDonald's Corporation to the Nazis, but they didn't live it, I did. I saw it. It's very much like a religious cult. They have silly pep rallies, they have team songs, they have little goofy cheerleaders at the Ronald McDonald University and you get a ring after 10 years of being Ronald - a six hundred dollar ring with rubies and gold. It's just goofy and dumb, it's like high school gone really, really bad. I was the figurehead of meat eating on the planet. Not only was I Ronald McDonald, but previous to that I was the Marvelous Magical Burger King. I believe I'm the only person with that dubious honor.
Question: So what would you say if you could address the board of McDonald's now?
Giuliano: Most of the Canadian stores are owned pretty much directly by George Cowen himself and he's in his sixties now. I'd say, "George, you've got a lot to pay for, you know. You better tread carefully, because there is such a thing as karma and you don't have to be a guru to know that. Direct cause and effect is pretty obvious. You do stuff like this, George and it's gonna come back to haunt you." If I were George, I'd be very afraid to die.
Question: What about you? How do you feel about what you did?
Giuliano: Just like the old Sicilian Catholic ideal, that I am by my heritage, I gotta atone, I gotta do something. I gotta, say whatever I can say and appeal to whomever on this issue. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. If you don't have to kill to eat, don't do it!. What's it for, is it so that we can all make a great living? No, it's for a few greedy evil men who are making the profits from this. It applied to me when I was Ronald as I was benefiting directly from this, and so what do you have to do to balance it? What's it for, is it so that we can all make a great living? No, it's for a few greedy evil men who are making the profits from this. It applied to me when I was Ronald McDonald as I was benefiting directly from this, and so what do you have to do to balance it? I used to be Ronald McDonald, and now I've turned that into a golden opportunity, to take each and every chance that comes my way to decry what went on, and continues to go on there. People might think I'm overstating, they might think that this guy has got a chip on his shoulder or something, it's not that big a deal, but just go out to the plant and it will become a big deal. I don't think there's a human being with a heart that can look at the shit that goes on there, that killing, torture, the fear and smell of death in the air and not be affected by it. So I spend as much of my time as I can, and I'm available seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, to do anything that anybody wants me to do to fight this big Goliath.
Question: How much effect do you think Ronald McDonald has? He's more recognized than Santa Claus?
Giuliano: Oh the kids love him! They don't know why they love him, they love him because they were told to love him. Somebody paid somebody to make them love him, so it's all a very unthinking, unfeeling exercise. The whole message is like, "this is what we're giving you, take it, shut up and put your hand deep in your pocket, and we'll take the proceeds".
Question: Do you think it was smart of McDonald's to have come up with Ronald?
Giuliano: Oh, it's real 50's, not really very anything inventive. A clown is a friendly, unthreatening thing. It's happy, it has a mask of make up, it's not real. There's no hard edges, it's all soft and blurred, you can easily embrace it. It's also safe and warm like a big animated stuffed toy. It's all just a con job and not a very sophisticated trick at all, it's just been around for so long it's familiar. Like what Hitler said; if you tell a lie long enough everybody believes that it's the truth, it becomes truth. Burger King got rid of the Marvelous Magical Burger King but Ronald is still with us. I'll see that bastard into the ground before I'm done...
Question: If you could look at the image of yourself in the Ronald McDonald suit, how do you react to that? Is it happy or sad?
Giuliano: Well, there I am as Ronald. The image there seems somewhat duplicitous to me. It seems really in your face, but if you look into the eyes, there's guile there - the smile is painted on. I remember when we used to put the black mascara on, they'd tell us to get it really dark to avoid 'pink eye', you know, they didn't want that pink, they wanted everything as as unreal as possible. I remember it was like the army, you know I'd have a kit inspection, they'd come and look and say, "zip that zipper up private", they wanted curls in the wig, but I was always a bit of a rebel - my zipper would be down when it was supposed to be up, that sort of thing. So don't ever think that this is a waste, and don't ever think that we'll go away, and don't ever think that this is not going to work. It will work, one person at a time.
Question: What do you think of Helen and Dave's role in this?
Giuliano: Anybody that does anything in this regard is a hero in my book. What we are trying to do here is raise consciousness, We're not going burn down restaurants or anything. It's all up here, in our heads.
This is one of the things the whole McLibel trial is about. All the people around the world are working towards this end. The consciousness changers and expanders group and that's how real change comes about. So don't ever think this is a waste, and don't ever think we'll go away, and don't ever think this is not going to work. Because i0t will work, one person at a time.
Question: Do you feel you've 'atoned' for what you did?
Giuliano: No. I'm in the process of atoning, and it'll take many years. One and a half years as Ronald McDonald is equal to about thirty years as an ardent, enthusiastic, animal rights activist, and then maybe I'll be able to die with a peaceful mind some day and move on successfully to the next level!
In mid 1980 Geoffrey Giuliano, his then wife Brenda (Vrnda Devi), their two young children, Sesa and Devin, moved to Toronto, Canada where Geoffrey signed on with McDonalds to portray Ronald McDonald in Canada via Vickers & Benson Advertising. He did the job for about a year and a bit. As time went on Giuliano’s ethical vegetarianism and the dubious goings-ons at McDonalds Corp wore away at him and he left. He was given $5000, presumably to keep his mouth shut, but it didn’t work! Since 1990 Giuliano has freely shared his thoughts about the controversial corporate juggernaught with countless media outlets around the globe. In this indepth 1997 interview conducted in St. John’s Wood, London, held to promote the upcoming McLiable case brewing at the time. Giuliano kept nothing back as he held forth on his slippery times as the world’s most famous clown prince of meat eating.
THE LONDON TIMES INTERVIEW 1997
Question: Are you the "original" Ronald McDonald?
Geoffrey Giuliano: No. The first Ronald is a silly weatherman on NBC named Willard Scott.
Question: How many years did you do it?
Giuliano: It was basically a year and a half. I was the Burger King for just under a year before that in New England. That was a very professional traveling show rather like old time Vaudeville.
Question: Was being Ronald a full time job?
Giuliano: Oh, yeah. I worked at an ad agency, Vickers & Benson in Toronto. I was way up on the 30th floor and had my own window office. One of the first things that struck me was that the executive core of McDonald's and their advertising agency don't eat McDonald's food! They had a cordon bleu chef - you called them up and they would make you whatever you wanted! I also had to do a lot of traveling to gigs in my very own super RV.
Question: What was the background to you being Ronald McDonald and was there a particular moment when you realized that you'd had enough?
Giuliano: I was pretty much fresh out of drama school (SUNY Brockport) and I had really big ideas that the Ronald McDonald Safety Show would help children not to drink bleach and set themselves on fire and things, so I learned it and did it. Then one day, as I was in the dressing room I found a memorandum from one of the McDonald's executives saying: 'To all personnel re: The Ronald McDonald Safety Show, the purpose of this show is to increase the public's awareness and especially young peoples' awareness of McDonald's goods and services'. I thought, gee, I thought it was to help kids!'The purpose of this show is to increase the public's awareness and especially the young peoples' awareness of McDonald's goods and services'. I thought, gee, I thought it was to help kids. The whole act was pretty corny and unbelievable from the start. The story, as we told it, was that hamburgers have nothing to do with a dead cow, that they grow in a happy little patch and you just go and pluck them with the Hamburglar and all the other moronic McDonaldland characters. They cloaked this wholesale slaughter of innocent animals in fairytales and PR. I once went to the McChicken plant where they "prepare" the chickens to make McNuggets. The chickens at one end are alive and come out dead at the other end. It smelled terrible. And there was a slippery goo on the floor. You knew this was a place of death. I remember taking a ride with George Cowan, the President of McDonald's of Canada from gig to gig because I was something he liked to show off, "the" Ronald McDonald. He kept hitting on all the young girls who worked at the "stores." I had a big fat book of unlimited account cards and such, the best make up, the best of everything. Including this goofy 30th floor office with a sexy secretary named Lynne. I used to go in the office, I had absolutely nothing to do, but I had the office and thekey to the executive washroom. It was just madness, cheap, sullied and dirty. You could feel the dirt, and everybody just took with both hands. After awhile it got to be too much and my conscience got the better of me. Things started to eat away at me, and over a few months, I decided "I can't do this anymore, this is sick and pointless". I realized that there would be karmic consequences for me if I stayed. One of them would be that I would make a lot of money. In fact, my mother was once standing with one of the big executives, John at McDonald's of Canada and he said to her, "We expect great things from Geoffrey". I thought to myself, "look, after about a year and a half, that's enough, take this job and shove it! I was out of work for a long time, which was tough, but they gave me a golden hand shake. Since I've 'come out of the closet' as an ethical veggie, now they make the other Ronald’s sign a document promising not to tell, and they give you some blood money if you keep your mouth shut. They gave me five thousand Canadian dollars and I just took off. As for my personal campaign against them, I was lying at home unemployed one day and I saw the Marlboro Man on TV. He was dying of lung cancer from smoking and he was doing an anti-smoking ad. I thought "wait a minute, what a great thing this is." When I did a speech in Toronto at the Vegetarian Food Fair I did my usual rabble-rousing. The next day Simon Halls, a spokesperson for McDonald's of Canada said in the Toronto Star "Guiliano has a right to his opinion. In fact we like vegetarians, we serve chicken and fish on our menu." Chicken and fish! Now, the last time I checked they were not vegetables. Half the time they don't even know what the hell they're talking about, but they don't care. I was talking to one of the marketing guys once and I said, "Do you think this is really good enough, do you think people will like it?" He said "You don't get it do you? You understand how it really works? We put shit out there and people buy it if you put enough money into the advertising."
Question: What do McDonald's think of you now?
Giuliano: Well, they have publicly said that, "Mr Guiliano has a right to his opinions and views and we obviously have a right to conduct our business", which is absolutely correct. Perhaps I flatter myself, my suspicion is that I'm public enemy number one in the US. The big problem is I haven't had as wide an access to the media as I might have if the McDonald's advertising dollar wasn't so powerful. For example, there was a local paper in western New York that did a story on me, and the owner of two McDonald's, one of the biggest concerns in the area, threatened to pull all his advertising if they went ahead. They did.
Yeah, that stuff goes on, you know, this is like a cold war at times, I've had death threats. I've had kidnapping threats. I'm not suggesting they came from McDonald's, but it certainly came from someone with a vested interest in keeping this game going and not being exposed for the murderers they are.
Question: May I ask you for a brief summary of your act?
Giuliano: I took my degrees as a Shakespearean actor. It's kind of a dip down, you know, from being the youngest actor in repertoire in the United States to ever play Macbeth to have my first professional gig as Ronald McDonald! I used to come on, "Hi everybody, this is Ronald McDonald, and boy oh boy, we're gonna have a lot of fun today, we're gonna sing songs, tell stories and learn about safety too. Would you like that"? I put everything into that character that any respectable actor would put into playing Richard III, it was important to me to do a good job. One thing I should tell you, no expense is spared in training Ronald. I'm a graduate of McDonald's University in Chicago and I'm also a graduate of Mark Wilson Productions (an old magician from the 50’s), first for Burger King, then for the McDonald's corp. I had dance teachers and I the best people training me. I also had to undergo unofficial psychological testing. When you sit that kid up on your knee they don't want to find out later that you are a child molester! Amoral promoter of wholesale slaughter, no problem, just don't touch the kids knees! I'm happy to report that I passed all the tests with flying colors. I once went to a town called Bellevue, Ontario and they let school out for the day and there were literally 15-20 thousand kids, my road manager called it Ronaldstock. I had one little microphone and did corny little 'needle through a balloon' magic tricks and stuff. Nobody could see or hear anything but, I mean, I was like a national hero, it was as if the President had come to town. All for Ronald McDonald. That's the kind of hero worship that takes good money to buy, you have pay for that. It's called brain-washing, and you gotta start young. It's like what the Jesuits say, "Give them to us before they're five and they'll be ours for life."
Question: Do you think McDonald's have a specific strategy in appealing to kids?
Giuliano: I was never allowed to eat the food, because that would be unseemly and could smudge the make-up. They don't really like you to think of it as food, it's fun! One thing they did say to me is that the people who control the disposable income aren't mummy and daddy, it's the kids you have to appeal to. They are the ones that say, "We want to go to McDonald's.' The majority of the kids I ran across were not aware that what they were eating had anything to do with a ground up dead animals.
Question: So you weren't allowed to advocate McDonald's products, how then did the kids relate to them?
Giuliano: The McDonaldland characters, I've forgotten all their names, it was so stupid, but we were told if they asked where the food came from that the hamburgers grow in a patch with the French fries next to them, it was really whacked, and the McDonaldland characters were as close as we were allowed to get to the facts. The only grain of truth in those characters was the one called the Hamburglar - he was a criminal who used to steal all the hamburgers. Maybe that was some sort of perverse reflection of the corporate McDonalds mentality. They were all subservient in the court of Ronald, the King, the Monarch of Meat , myself. I was the only one allowed to talk - you had to be highly trained to talk.
Question: So what did you do if kids asked you what hamburgers were made of?
Giuliano: As I said, you were never overtly allowed to mention food or where it came from. It was cloaked in razzmatazz - hamburgers came from a hamburger patch and you picked them. Of course, kids know that if it grows in a patch and you pick it, it's a vegetable. What does that tell you? It tells you they know there's something distasteful there, so they sugar coat it so people don't really put two and two together. How stupid are we as a society that we don't even understand that a hamburger is a dead cow? McDonald’s keeps it one step removed from reality. If they can keep you one step away from the truth and keep you stupid, you'll keep coming back.
Question: How did you get on with the McDonald's executives?
Giuliano: The McDonald's executives, by and large, were goofy, nerdy guys and girls, uptight, square, penny loafer-type human persons. I felt they were high class, highly paid losers. They weren't hip, aware, inquisitive, introspective people. They were just surface little chatty wind up corporate monkeys. Hey, that was a good soundbite! In the end, when I left, the executives said, "Well, go ahead, go, because you're not McDonaldised enough anyway." What the hell does that mean, "not McDonaldised enough"? It's rather like "not being enough of a Nazi". I don't know exactly what it means, but I'm glad I'm not and that I wasn't! I felt like the Pied Piper, except that I was leading the kids into a life of bad food, bad health and bad karma!
Question: How do you and how did you see your relationship to these children?
Giuliano: Well, there's no question that I was manipulating these children. I was a highly paid, highly trained, highly polished actor. Every show was a performance and I had a mandate to get that message out there, and yeah, it was not too hard - anybody can manipulate a child. I just went home one night, and I said "I cannot do this, I can't live with myself if I continue to do this"
Every show was a performance and I had a mandate to get that message out there and yeah, it was not too hard - anybody can manipulate a child you know.
Question: So do you feel that you were in turn manipulated by McDonald's?
Giuliano: I was a young guy on the make, I was just out of drama school, I was the hot shot actor in college, and I thought I was going to be the next Robert De Niro (not!). It turned out I was the next Ronald McDonald. It was mutual, I was just looking for a job.
Question: What do you think now when you see Ronald McDonald on television?
Giuliano: When I see Ronald on TV now, the first thing I think is, "that poor sap needs a fucking job". I just think what a crying shame it is. We could at least lay it on the table, tell the kids what the food is, what they're really eating. Instead we get this fake smiling image. It's what McDonald's makes money on and that's all they're after. Ronald himself, the deification or Godhead of meat eating is just a cover for their greed. Like their charities, the Ronald McDonald Houses. They care about as much for dying kids as they do for live ones! They only care about the money, just money. commerce in it's most brazen, unfeeling, uncompassionate form. They can hoodwink the public with their Ronald McDonald House for dying children and their families, but not me. It's just a hollow attempt to make money, for anyone with any insight. You can see that they're just trying to put on a good front, you know. It's rather like Nazi propaganda. It could even be offensive to someone who sees this for me to compare McDonald's Corporation to the Nazis, but they didn't live it, I did. I saw it. It's very much like a religious cult. They have silly pep rallies, they have team songs, they have little goofy cheerleaders at the Ronald McDonald University and you get a ring after 10 years of being Ronald - a six hundred dollar ring with rubies and gold. It's just goofy and dumb, it's like high school gone really, really bad. I was the figurehead of meat eating on the planet. Not only was I Ronald McDonald, but previous to that I was the Marvelous Magical Burger King. I believe I'm the only person with that dubious honor.
Question: So what would you say if you could address the board of McDonald's now?
Giuliano: Most of the Canadian stores are owned pretty much directly by George Cowen himself and he's in his sixties now. I'd say, "George, you've got a lot to pay for, you know. You better tread carefully, because there is such a thing as karma and you don't have to be a guru to know that. Direct cause and effect is pretty obvious. You do stuff like this, George and it's gonna come back to haunt you." If I were George, I'd be very afraid to die.
Question: What about you? How do you feel about what you did?
Giuliano: Just like the old Sicilian Catholic ideal, that I am by my heritage, I gotta atone, I gotta do something. I gotta, say whatever I can say and appeal to whomever on this issue. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. If you don't have to kill to eat, don't do it!. What's it for, is it so that we can all make a great living? No, it's for a few greedy evil men who are making the profits from this. It applied to me when I was Ronald as I was benefiting directly from this, and so what do you have to do to balance it? What's it for, is it so that we can all make a great living? No, it's for a few greedy evil men who are making the profits from this. It applied to me when I was Ronald McDonald as I was benefiting directly from this, and so what do you have to do to balance it? I used to be Ronald McDonald, and now I've turned that into a golden opportunity, to take each and every chance that comes my way to decry what went on, and continues to go on there. People might think I'm overstating, they might think that this guy has got a chip on his shoulder or something, it's not that big a deal, but just go out to the plant and it will become a big deal. I don't think there's a human being with a heart that can look at the shit that goes on there, that killing, torture, the fear and smell of death in the air and not be affected by it. So I spend as much of my time as I can, and I'm available seven days a week, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, to do anything that anybody wants me to do to fight this big Goliath.
Question: How much effect do you think Ronald McDonald has? He's more recognized than Santa Claus?
Giuliano: Oh the kids love him! They don't know why they love him, they love him because they were told to love him. Somebody paid somebody to make them love him, so it's all a very unthinking, unfeeling exercise. The whole message is like, "this is what we're giving you, take it, shut up and put your hand deep in your pocket, and we'll take the proceeds".
Question: Do you think it was smart of McDonald's to have come up with Ronald?
Giuliano: Oh, it's real 50's, not really very anything inventive. A clown is a friendly, unthreatening thing. It's happy, it has a mask of make up, it's not real. There's no hard edges, it's all soft and blurred, you can easily embrace it. It's also safe and warm like a big animated stuffed toy. It's all just a con job and not a very sophisticated trick at all, it's just been around for so long it's familiar. Like what Hitler said; if you tell a lie long enough everybody believes that it's the truth, it becomes truth. Burger King got rid of the Marvelous Magical Burger King but Ronald is still with us. I'll see that bastard into the ground before I'm done...
Question: If you could look at the image of yourself in the Ronald McDonald suit, how do you react to that? Is it happy or sad?
Giuliano: Well, there I am as Ronald. The image there seems somewhat duplicitous to me. It seems really in your face, but if you look into the eyes, there's guile there - the smile is painted on. I remember when we used to put the black mascara on, they'd tell us to get it really dark to avoid 'pink eye', you know, they didn't want that pink, they wanted everything as as unreal as possible. I remember it was like the army, you know I'd have a kit inspection, they'd come and look and say, "zip that zipper up private", they wanted curls in the wig, but I was always a bit of a rebel - my zipper would be down when it was supposed to be up, that sort of thing. So don't ever think that this is a waste, and don't ever think that we'll go away, and don't ever think that this is not going to work. It will work, one person at a time.
Question: What do you think of Helen and Dave's role in this?
Giuliano: Anybody that does anything in this regard is a hero in my book. What we are trying to do here is raise consciousness, We're not going burn down restaurants or anything. It's all up here, in our heads.
This is one of the things the whole McLibel trial is about. All the people around the world are working towards this end. The consciousness changers and expanders group and that's how real change comes about. So don't ever think this is a waste, and don't ever think we'll go away, and don't ever think this is not going to work. Because i0t will work, one person at a time.
Question: Do you feel you've 'atoned' for what you did?
Giuliano: No. I'm in the process of atoning, and it'll take many years. One and a half years as Ronald McDonald is equal to about thirty years as an ardent, enthusiastic, animal rights activist, and then maybe I'll be able to die with a peaceful mind some day and move on successfully to the next level!
THE LIVERPOOL LENNON'S / GEOFFREY GIULIANO TALKS TO DR. LEILA HARVEY & JULIA BAIRD
Manchester, 1986
Question: Tell me a bit about John's mum.
Leila Harvey: John was Julia's only son and his pictures were all around the kitchen. He was never, ever separated from his mother. It was an extended family of five sisters and seven children. We could be in anybody's house and so could John. His mother lived only about ten minutes away from Mimi so we could always go and spend the weekend with Judy [Julia].
Question: Although Julia was untrained could she sing?
Leila: Yes. She played the banjo and sang beautifully. Me being pre-judiced, I would say she was even more gifted than John. Judy had personality, she was a little darling. She was offered professional work by Mater's [John and Julia's Aunt Elizabeth] husband but refused. She was too lighthearted. Judy wasn't serious enough to sing or be an entertainer but she could catch anyone's heart.
Question: Julia [Baird] says that had she lived, Judy would have been right up there on stage with the Beatles.
Leila: She would. Right up front and everybody would have loved her. I guarantee you won't find one person who would say a bad word against Judy, apart from people writing silly books who don't know anything about her. She was lovely to everybody. Anybody who stopped by would have a cup of tea. The main thing about her was that she was always very, very witty.
Question: Do you remember anything particularly charming about John's childhood?
Leila: At about fourteen or fifteen John could pick up any instrument and play it, the mouth organ, the accordion. He was very affectionate and sweet natured. We'd sit watching television and he'd always put his head on my lap.
Question: There's another view of John that he was a bit of a neighbourhood bully.
Leila: Aren't all fifteen-year-olds trying to be a bit macho? He was very sweet and soft. And quite serious about things, what's right and wrong. John would often talk to me about what he should do. He was a very serious little lad sometimes. Still, I only knew him until the age of fifteen.
Question: What are your first memories of the Beatles? Did you go and see them when they were in Germany?
Leila: I didn't, no. I was working day and night. I did buy their first four records and then I thought, 'Well, four, that's enough. He's going to go on doing this forever so I'm going to buy a bit of classical music now.'
Question: Did John ever ring you?
Leila: I had no contact with him. The next time we connected was
when the Beatles were beginning to break up in 1969. The family said he was on this terrible diet and looked very ill. When I saw him I was shocked. It was at Apple and he looked a hundred. He was eating his three lentils and two grains of rice a day. He looked really ill. I visited him once at Weybridge. There was no security, I just walked right into his office. I visited him there because that was the last time I could see him as I was back at work and had my three children to look after.
Question: Life does goes on, doesn't it?
Leila: Families do separate to that extent, yes. I was with John totally from the age of two to fifteen. Our whole childhood, all our Christmases, Easters, all our summers were spent together. After that, hardly at all.
Question: What did you think when you saw John in this condition?
Leila: I was very upset at the state of his health and worried about him.
Question: Did you say that to him?
Leila: It wasn't easy to get a word in edgeways with the lady there
[Yoko]. We had a good old chat at Weybridge though. At that point
John was very separated from his family.
Question: We've been talking around it, but obviously, you weren't
very impressed by Yoko. Do you think she had a positive influence over him?
Leila: No, I wouldn't say that. I think Yoko provided John with what
he needed at the time. I think his life would have been more in balance if he hadn't gone so far out. We didn't like the vulgarity. It's not our style and really, it's not John's style. John was a healthy, normal male. We didn't like the exhibitionism.
Question: Are you referring to their Two Virgins nude album cover?
Leila: The nude photographs, yes.
Julia Baird: All of that sort of nonsense.
Question: Why do you think he did it?
Leila: John was not really an exhibitionist. John had a musical talent. His body was nothing to write home about. As Mimi said at Apple, 'It
would have been all right John, but you're both so ugly. Why don't you get somebody attractive on the cover, if you've got to have somebody naked?' It was just silly. It was childish exhibitionism. It's like, 'We've done everything else, now what can we do? Take our clothes off!' That's what children do at the beach. I've had a recent argument with Yoko concerning the sale of my letters from John. She was rather rude on the phone, telling me off about it. And I don't consider that she is in any position to criticise my morals. I said, 'Look here, you were only married to John, but he was our blood.' That really annoyed her. She said a rude word, which I'm not going to repeat because that would be bitchy. She stopped sending her little Christmas gifts after that, so she's obviously annoyed. She rang my brother David and thought I would apologise. She has no right to ring me up and criticise my morals. If I wish to sell John's letters, and I didn't actually, I wanted to wait until I was dead.
Question: No one ever made any more money off John Lennon than Yoko Ono!
Leila: Well, I certainly haven't made any, but my daughter did. I could have had anything I wanted from John when he was alive but it would have hurt him if I asked, so I didn't. I've never been short of money. But my daughter is just starting off in life and she wanted something. So she sold them and she got the money. She shared it with her brothers and I never touched it. I think Yoko feels that the family might try and take away a bit of her fun. But we're not interested in publicity. We have our normal lives and our families. That's her life. She thinks we're muscling in on her turf, but we're not. She was afraid that my daughter selling those letters might somehow affect the attendance at her concerts. Question: The only thing that affected her concerts was her complete, innate inability to sing on key and people not wanting to buy tickets to hear her crucify John's songs.
Leila: I was never rude to her. The only thing I said which really annoyed her was, 'Look, Yoko, John was our blood, you were only married to him,' which I think is fair comment.
Dr Leila Harvey is Lennon's first cousin on his mother's side. As children, she and John were exceptionally close.
Question: Tell me a bit about John's mum.
Leila Harvey: John was Julia's only son and his pictures were all around the kitchen. He was never, ever separated from his mother. It was an extended family of five sisters and seven children. We could be in anybody's house and so could John. His mother lived only about ten minutes away from Mimi so we could always go and spend the weekend with Judy [Julia].
Question: Although Julia was untrained could she sing?
Leila: Yes. She played the banjo and sang beautifully. Me being pre-judiced, I would say she was even more gifted than John. Judy had personality, she was a little darling. She was offered professional work by Mater's [John and Julia's Aunt Elizabeth] husband but refused. She was too lighthearted. Judy wasn't serious enough to sing or be an entertainer but she could catch anyone's heart.
Question: Julia [Baird] says that had she lived, Judy would have been right up there on stage with the Beatles.
Leila: She would. Right up front and everybody would have loved her. I guarantee you won't find one person who would say a bad word against Judy, apart from people writing silly books who don't know anything about her. She was lovely to everybody. Anybody who stopped by would have a cup of tea. The main thing about her was that she was always very, very witty.
Question: Do you remember anything particularly charming about John's childhood?
Leila: At about fourteen or fifteen John could pick up any instrument and play it, the mouth organ, the accordion. He was very affectionate and sweet natured. We'd sit watching television and he'd always put his head on my lap.
Question: There's another view of John that he was a bit of a neighbourhood bully.
Leila: Aren't all fifteen-year-olds trying to be a bit macho? He was very sweet and soft. And quite serious about things, what's right and wrong. John would often talk to me about what he should do. He was a very serious little lad sometimes. Still, I only knew him until the age of fifteen.
Question: What are your first memories of the Beatles? Did you go and see them when they were in Germany?
Leila: I didn't, no. I was working day and night. I did buy their first four records and then I thought, 'Well, four, that's enough. He's going to go on doing this forever so I'm going to buy a bit of classical music now.'
Question: Did John ever ring you?
Leila: I had no contact with him. The next time we connected was
when the Beatles were beginning to break up in 1969. The family said he was on this terrible diet and looked very ill. When I saw him I was shocked. It was at Apple and he looked a hundred. He was eating his three lentils and two grains of rice a day. He looked really ill. I visited him once at Weybridge. There was no security, I just walked right into his office. I visited him there because that was the last time I could see him as I was back at work and had my three children to look after.
Question: Life does goes on, doesn't it?
Leila: Families do separate to that extent, yes. I was with John totally from the age of two to fifteen. Our whole childhood, all our Christmases, Easters, all our summers were spent together. After that, hardly at all.
Question: What did you think when you saw John in this condition?
Leila: I was very upset at the state of his health and worried about him.
Question: Did you say that to him?
Leila: It wasn't easy to get a word in edgeways with the lady there
[Yoko]. We had a good old chat at Weybridge though. At that point
John was very separated from his family.
Question: We've been talking around it, but obviously, you weren't
very impressed by Yoko. Do you think she had a positive influence over him?
Leila: No, I wouldn't say that. I think Yoko provided John with what
he needed at the time. I think his life would have been more in balance if he hadn't gone so far out. We didn't like the vulgarity. It's not our style and really, it's not John's style. John was a healthy, normal male. We didn't like the exhibitionism.
Question: Are you referring to their Two Virgins nude album cover?
Leila: The nude photographs, yes.
Julia Baird: All of that sort of nonsense.
Question: Why do you think he did it?
Leila: John was not really an exhibitionist. John had a musical talent. His body was nothing to write home about. As Mimi said at Apple, 'It
would have been all right John, but you're both so ugly. Why don't you get somebody attractive on the cover, if you've got to have somebody naked?' It was just silly. It was childish exhibitionism. It's like, 'We've done everything else, now what can we do? Take our clothes off!' That's what children do at the beach. I've had a recent argument with Yoko concerning the sale of my letters from John. She was rather rude on the phone, telling me off about it. And I don't consider that she is in any position to criticise my morals. I said, 'Look here, you were only married to John, but he was our blood.' That really annoyed her. She said a rude word, which I'm not going to repeat because that would be bitchy. She stopped sending her little Christmas gifts after that, so she's obviously annoyed. She rang my brother David and thought I would apologise. She has no right to ring me up and criticise my morals. If I wish to sell John's letters, and I didn't actually, I wanted to wait until I was dead.
Question: No one ever made any more money off John Lennon than Yoko Ono!
Leila: Well, I certainly haven't made any, but my daughter did. I could have had anything I wanted from John when he was alive but it would have hurt him if I asked, so I didn't. I've never been short of money. But my daughter is just starting off in life and she wanted something. So she sold them and she got the money. She shared it with her brothers and I never touched it. I think Yoko feels that the family might try and take away a bit of her fun. But we're not interested in publicity. We have our normal lives and our families. That's her life. She thinks we're muscling in on her turf, but we're not. She was afraid that my daughter selling those letters might somehow affect the attendance at her concerts. Question: The only thing that affected her concerts was her complete, innate inability to sing on key and people not wanting to buy tickets to hear her crucify John's songs.
Leila: I was never rude to her. The only thing I said which really annoyed her was, 'Look, Yoko, John was our blood, you were only married to him,' which I think is fair comment.
Dr Leila Harvey is Lennon's first cousin on his mother's side. As children, she and John were exceptionally close.
THE LIVERPOOL LENNON'S / GEOFFREY GIULIANO TALKS TO JULIA BAIRD
Chester, 14 September 1986
Question: Tell me the social worker's story, if you would.
Julia Baird: When John was three or four, Mimi was to have said to my mother, 'You're not fit to have him.' That would have been just after Victoria's birth. I suppose Mimi's concern was for John though, wasn't it? John could have greater stability with her. My mother, of course, desperately wanted him. As far as I know, Mimi had to go away the first time she tried to take him. My father said, 'It's her child and if she wants him then that's it. It's her son.' Anyway, Mimi returned with a social worker and said, 'I don't want them to have him, they're not married.' The worker then said, 'Well, I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, but John's her son. Come, show me where he sleeps.' They were then shown the room where John was sleeping with my mother and father. John was given to Mimi at that point. And the social worker said, 'When you have somewhere for John to sleep, then he comes back.' Question: Later your mother presumably became convinced that it was better for John to live with Mimi.
Julia: My mother probably thought he'd been backwards and for-wards enough. The only reason she handed him over was for his own good.
Question: What does Mimi say about Julia? Does she ever imply she might have been derelict in her duty, to have given John up? Julia: All of my family say that my mother was a most wonderful per¬son and I remember it to be so. I think she was a bit eccentric though. Question: What about this idea that your mother was of loose morals? Julia: Obviously it's not something I want to confront. But I know now that first there was John and then there was another child, Victoria, before me, which I didn't know until about two or three years ago. Question: Would the other sisters have lit into her for that? Julia: I'm sure. She already had John, didn't she? There was no money coming from his father and Pop [Julia Lennon's father] was helping keep them. From what I gather, between my grandfather and Mimi the pressure was on to have the baby adopted. Mummy didn't go into Sef-ton General to have Victoria where John, Jacqui and I were born. She went into a nursing home where they arranged the adoption. Mum had the baby and it was adopted by a Norwegian sea captain as far as I know.
Question: This Victoria would be forty-two now, with virtually no knowledge of her background.
Julia: Apparently Norwegian law says you don't have to tell the child anything. Now here, if you're adopted you get your birth certificate and you see immediately if you've been adopted. Question: I suppose it's very difficult to give us your first memory of John because, as you've said, he always seemed to be there.
Julia: I never realised he was a half-brother because you don't realise such things, do you? Unless the family's going to make it clear, which they didn't.
Question: Until when?
Julia: I was about sixteen. I overheard two aunts talking. Question: But surely you knew his last name was Lennon? Julia: It didn't mean a thing to me. They were always talking about Freddy Lennon and it began to wash over me when I was about four¬teen but I completely put it to one side until I heard the two aunts discussing it. We'd never been brought up as 'this is your half-brother, this is your half-sister'.
Question: From what I can gather, your family was close, to the extent that the whole clan became an extended family. John might live with Mimi, you could stay with one aunt and another aunt could take care of the other kids for a while. That's very different. Julia: Yes, we cousins were together when we were growing up. Leila, Stanley and John were close and David, Jacqui, Michael and I are like a second family within the children's generation. We're all still called 'the children', however. We did visit a lot because all the sisters were really very, very close.
Question: What kind of big brother was John?
Julia: Obviously he didn't live with us full-time. You look back now and think, 'Why didn't we think it was odd?' But we didn't, it was just the way it was. He'd come over weekends, we'd get up and John would be there. The older we got the more he came round with his mates until he was there almost nightly and at lunch. When he was younger he used to take us to the park. My mother would say, 'Take the girls to the swings please, John.' He'd take us out while he played football with his friends and we had a go on the swings. He used to take us to the pic¬tures under duress. We went to see the Elvis film, Love Me Tender, which we saw twice because we were abandoned there. He'd watch it once with us and then run off. I don't know where he went, probably to see his friends or something. Then he'd pick us up after the second show.
Question: Tell me about John's bedroom at Mendips. Julia: Well, he had this small front room which you could just about get you and the cat in. You'd open the door and he'd have skeletons and things flying about with their arms all going in the air. John made them himself. The lights went on and off and these puppets jiggled around when you opened the door. Question: Tell me something about John as a boy. Julia: Happy as a lark, whimsical, always dancing up and down, very good with us girls. Really just a lovable big brother hanging around the house. We were all great friends.
Question: People say that he was rather aggressive, though.
Julia: He wasn't within the family. He was always a very family-oriented person.
Question: What about his relationship with Mimi? It was rather tempestuous, wasn't it?
Julia: Not always. I think as a teenager he was certainly a rebel. He rebelled against school as he didn't really like the uniformity. He also rebelled against art school by not working when he finally got there. I don't really know what he would have done if he hadn't broken into music so successfully.
Question: Tell me about John singing to you girls.
Julia: He'd sing to all of us, not just Jacqui and me. He'd perform for all the children in the road. My mother would do exactly the same. Question: What did he sing?
Julia: Very simple stuff on the piano. And later Elvis songs, just banging away.
Question: Did John and Mimi argue much?
Julia: They started having great rows about John's clothes and things. Mimi was doing the bread and butter and looking after us. My mother was the fun girl. It must have been a difficult position for Mimi to be in.
Question: You've commented that your mother and John had a great thing going, humour-wise.
Julia: They both had a fantastic sense of humour. There was a terrific rapport between them. There was a lot of wit flying backwards and forwards.
Question: You've said it really wasn't like a mother—son relationship at all. It was more of a friendship.
Julia: Well, I mean this is how it is when you got older, isn't it? She would still do the washing for him, though.
Question: Did he always call her Mummy?
Julia: Always.
Question: Do you remember John's first girlfriend?
Julia: The girls always liked John. This one girl, Barbara Baker, appeared a lot. She lived up in Woolton near Mimi. John was coming down more and more so she used to show up as well. We would all be playing and there she was. I remember once she asked us to go and etch John. We did and my mother came out and shouted, 'What do
you want from him?' The next thing I know, John was walking down he road with her. They would cuddle together in the grass.
Question: I've heard that Mimi once wanted John to accept a job as a )us conductor.
Julia: It must be very worrying to see somebody you're responsible for living in a dream when their whole life is stretching out in front of
them.
Question: Did you ever go to the Cavern to see the Beatles?
Julia: Everybody went to the Cavern. I didn't go as much as I might lave as we lived quite a long way out of town. The last bus back was ridiculously early so we couldn't really stay out very late.
Question: How did it affect your life when the Beatles became very successful in Liverpool before they went to America? Julia: At school it was nice. We spent quite a few double A level lessons sitting and chatting about the Beatles. Still, the school, like me, had grown up with it and we were all a little blase about the whole thing. I went down to London on shopping trips and it was all very exciting. Kenwood [John's mansion in Weybridge] was just being renovated.
Question: Do you remember when the Beatles went to the States for the
first time?
Julia: Oh yes. That's when John really departed from our lives.
Question: Didn't Mimi go on one of those trips?
Julia: Mimi went on a world tour. She went to Hong Kong and brought
us all back watches and things. We have family in New Zealand and
she went to stay for about six months, but that wasn't a Beatle thing.
She went to see her family and stopped off in Hong Kong on the way
and brought us all stuff back.
Question: Do you remember what it was like at Mendips when the fans
were going nuts in the garden?
Julia: Oh yes. That was awful. Poor Mimi. I really felt sorry for her. She
was beleaguered by people camping in the garden.
Question: How did John change when he got money?
Julia: He was still very family-minded.
Question: People have told me he never really cared that much about
money.
Julia: I think anyone who asked for it, got it. Which prevented a lot of people who maybe would have liked to have done, from asking. John
was very family-minded and lovable. The Beatles were doing shows at the same time. He did a gig once and we all went to watch it. We were in the dressing room and Mick Jagger was there. People would come in to wish them well and everyone was drinking Cokes. Jacqui and I were put in the front row. We wanted to go out front so we could see the show. When it got a bit raucous John said, 'Get the girls,' and we were hauled onto the stage and watched from the wings because we didn't realise everyone was raging forward.
Question: You must have felt very special going up on stage when all the other girls were clambering about.
Julia: No, it wasn't as glamorous as that. We were just hauled up belly-wise into the wings to get out of the way.
Question: Where did John and Cynthia stay when they first got married?
Julia: I was there chatting with Mimi in the morning and she said, 'John wants to see me this afternoon. I know what he wants, he wants to move in and I'm going to let him.' I said, 'What are you going to do, Mimi?' She said, 'I'm going to live upstairs,' and that's exactly what she did. John's bedroom was converted into her kitchen. Just a tiny little cooker where John's bed was and she made the front bedroom her sit¬ting room.
Question: How long did they live there?
Julia: I don't know. A couple of months or something. Then I don't know where they went. I remember them moving in, though. Question: How did Mimi react to John's initial success? Julia: At that stage you couldn't really argue with it, could you? Question: When he first got money, what did he do ? Did he run out and buy a big car?
Julia: He couldn't drive until he lived at Kenwood. He didn't have a licence so he didn't buy a car. I don't know when he bought his Mini, but I know that Harrie [John's Aunt Harriet] borrowed it for a time because John couldn't yet drive.
Question: Do you recall hearing the Beatles on the radio very early on?
Julia: We'd come home from school and John was always there to inform us when the Beatles would be on the radio. At that time they did a big concert in Liverpool and we all had front-row seats. That was our first experience of the wildness of Beatlemania. We were locked in the dressing room, unable to get out. I think that's when it really hit me. I thought, 'What is going on?'
Question: Tell me about these wild shopping sprees John and Cynthia took you on.
Julia: We had whatever we wanted. Jacqui got a pair of beautiful leather trousers. It was just clothes beyond what you would have normally been able to afford. Expensive jumpers, records and things. Question: What about your visit to George Harrison's house? Julia: We went to Esher not long after George moved in. John said, 'We're just going across for a visit.' Cynthia drove. It was John, Cynthia, Julian, Jacqui and me.
Question: Was he married to Pattie Boyd at the time? Julia: I don't know. All I could think was that she was the Smith's Crisps Girl and she had a lisp. The house was very bare, but nice. There were cushions on all the floors. I think it was the last time I've ever per¬sonally seen George. We'd seen Pattie once before at Woolworth's in Liverpool promoting Smith's Crisps.
Question: How did you and John get back together again after all those years?
Julia: Mater [John and Julia's Aunt Elizabeth] rang one night just after John had gone back with Yoko in 1976. He told Mater, 'Get in touch with the girls.' He said that he wanted to see us. He told her that he had been thinking about Mother a lot and wanted to make it up to us. He said he could set Allan up in a business and if we needed anything we were only to ask. Probably, if he hadn't been such a mega-bucker we'd have been in touch before. If he had emigrated to Australia and become a sheep farmer I would have gone and stayed, but his financial position put him out of touch with just about everyone. Allan was saying, 'Are you going to ring him?' 'I need time,' I said, 'I need to think about it.'
Question: Did Allan want you to call?
Julia: Yes, but he wasn't a money-grubbing idiot. The first time I phoned I didn't know what to expect. A woman answered and said she'd been expecting my call for some time. She asked all kinds of ques¬tions, my maiden name, who had given me the number, my father's middle name. After a few minutes I said, 'Forget it, just forget it, it's all wrong.' As I put the phone down I heard John shout, 'Hang on, don't hang up! I'm sorry about that, but you have no idea how many sisters, cousins and aunties I've got.' Then we had a long, long chat. Mostly he was going on about, 'Do you recall laughing with Mummy and do you remember her spotted dress?' He said he had a new baby and asked about ours and Jacqui's and wondered if ours looked Irish. He wanted to know if my daughter Nicki had red hair like Mummy's. We didn't talk about being famous at all.
Question: Were there any tears?
Julia: Oh yes, he cried and I cried. We spent a lot of money crying! John said, 'I've thought a lot about you over the years. Really and truly I have.' We were talking about how he felt about Mummy and how he felt now that he had a baby. He said he'd screwed things up with Julian, completely. 'I've been looking for a family and now I realise I've had one all along,' he told me. I said, 'Yes, you have, but we're here and you're there.' Then we talked about his green card and how the US government was trying to boot him out of the country. There was so much he wanted to do in America and if he left they wouldn't let him back in. 'You'll have to come over,' he said. But nothing ever mater¬ialised. Ironically, it was John who said, 'We'd better get off this call. Next time, call collect.' 'You mean reverse the charges?' I said. 'Speak to me in English, you've gone American on us!' Question: Didn't John ask you to send him some family photographs? Julia: He asked if I had any of Mummy and I said yes. There was one in particular where she was pregnant with Jacqui and I had this big, furry hat on. Leila, Stan and John were also in it. Allan did a twenty-by-sixty black and white print of it, but with only Mummy and John. I even¬tually snipped John off it because I only wanted a photograph of my mother. John said, 'Send it to me, please. Send it to me.' I said, 'You must be joking. You must have far more photographs than I. You should send me what you've got!' He said, 'The stupid reporters took them all and I never got any of them back. I haven't a single one of Mummy.' The next day we packed up loads of photographs and sent them over.
Question: How long did that first call last?
Julia: Two and a half hours. Allan paid the bill. It was enormous. After that, I called collect.
Question: Was it difficult getting through to John on the phone?
Julia: Sometimes I got through to John, sometimes his secretary and sometimes to Yoko. Initially it was all, 'Yes, I'll go get John and yes, here he is.' Sometimes, however, Yoko just broke in on a phone call. That was fine. We never said anything she wouldn't have already known, I'm sure. In the first phone call when John said, 'You should have come to see me. I have thought about you and Jacqui. Recently in the last year I've thought about you more than ever. I wanted a family and now I realise I've had one all along. You should have come to find me,' I really think he was right. I should have made more of an effort. The onus was more on me than him. I mean, John could have rung, there's no doubt about that. I thought, we'll get in touch and just see what's happening. The next thing I heard was that he was coming over in January of 1980. It was on the family grapevine.
Question: Tell me about the letter you got from Yoko. Julia: In the midst of John writing me letters, after I sent some photo¬graphs over, Yoko wrote to me. It was just headed, 'Summer of '75, New York City.' It was just a chatty letter saying that Jacqui looks like John when he's in good condition, chatting about Sean and what they did together. I was quite surprised though to see that it was from Yoko and not John.
Question: What did John tell you he'd been up to during all those years he spent away from the music business?
Julia: I asked him what he did with himself and he said he was a house-husband. He looked after Sean. He was going to give him the years he hadn't given Julian, which he always regretted. He was steeped in things like changing the baby and seeing to his needs. He also learned how to bake bread and was always asking me how to cook. He asked me how hard my loaves were and how soggy bread was supposed to be in the middle. He said he always wanted to look at them when he knew he shouldn't open the oven. 'Wasn't it lovely eating it straight out of the oven,' and things like that. As children, none of us cooked. We always came in from school to a full delicious meal every night. We never had to do anything. So we left home not knowing how to boil an egg. Now John was learning on his own. He told me that at first his bread was rock-hard and couldn't be eaten. Then he talked about cooking meat. His favourite must have been lamb. When he came home to Harrie's with Yoko in 1969 she cooked him a leg of lamb when he was all macrobiotic and he loved it. When Cynthia and he were entertaining at Kenwood he particularly wanted her to cook a leg of lamb. Then he asked me, 'How do you cook lamb?' And I was saying, 'I just roast it, I don't do anything particular.' 'Do you put it in baking foil or not?' It was like two old women exchanging kitchen news. He was making me laugh, saying, 'You've no idea how exhausting it is looking after a baby.' I said, 'I'm on my second one now, of course I know.' He seemed to be thoroughly enjoying life. He said he loved going to the park with Sean and Yoko, pushing the baby.
Julia Baird is John Lennon's younger half-sister. Holding several degrees, she is today a French teacher and lives outside Liverpool. Julia has three children.
Question: Tell me the social worker's story, if you would.
Julia Baird: When John was three or four, Mimi was to have said to my mother, 'You're not fit to have him.' That would have been just after Victoria's birth. I suppose Mimi's concern was for John though, wasn't it? John could have greater stability with her. My mother, of course, desperately wanted him. As far as I know, Mimi had to go away the first time she tried to take him. My father said, 'It's her child and if she wants him then that's it. It's her son.' Anyway, Mimi returned with a social worker and said, 'I don't want them to have him, they're not married.' The worker then said, 'Well, I'm sorry, Mrs Smith, but John's her son. Come, show me where he sleeps.' They were then shown the room where John was sleeping with my mother and father. John was given to Mimi at that point. And the social worker said, 'When you have somewhere for John to sleep, then he comes back.' Question: Later your mother presumably became convinced that it was better for John to live with Mimi.
Julia: My mother probably thought he'd been backwards and for-wards enough. The only reason she handed him over was for his own good.
Question: What does Mimi say about Julia? Does she ever imply she might have been derelict in her duty, to have given John up? Julia: All of my family say that my mother was a most wonderful per¬son and I remember it to be so. I think she was a bit eccentric though. Question: What about this idea that your mother was of loose morals? Julia: Obviously it's not something I want to confront. But I know now that first there was John and then there was another child, Victoria, before me, which I didn't know until about two or three years ago. Question: Would the other sisters have lit into her for that? Julia: I'm sure. She already had John, didn't she? There was no money coming from his father and Pop [Julia Lennon's father] was helping keep them. From what I gather, between my grandfather and Mimi the pressure was on to have the baby adopted. Mummy didn't go into Sef-ton General to have Victoria where John, Jacqui and I were born. She went into a nursing home where they arranged the adoption. Mum had the baby and it was adopted by a Norwegian sea captain as far as I know.
Question: This Victoria would be forty-two now, with virtually no knowledge of her background.
Julia: Apparently Norwegian law says you don't have to tell the child anything. Now here, if you're adopted you get your birth certificate and you see immediately if you've been adopted. Question: I suppose it's very difficult to give us your first memory of John because, as you've said, he always seemed to be there.
Julia: I never realised he was a half-brother because you don't realise such things, do you? Unless the family's going to make it clear, which they didn't.
Question: Until when?
Julia: I was about sixteen. I overheard two aunts talking. Question: But surely you knew his last name was Lennon? Julia: It didn't mean a thing to me. They were always talking about Freddy Lennon and it began to wash over me when I was about four¬teen but I completely put it to one side until I heard the two aunts discussing it. We'd never been brought up as 'this is your half-brother, this is your half-sister'.
Question: From what I can gather, your family was close, to the extent that the whole clan became an extended family. John might live with Mimi, you could stay with one aunt and another aunt could take care of the other kids for a while. That's very different. Julia: Yes, we cousins were together when we were growing up. Leila, Stanley and John were close and David, Jacqui, Michael and I are like a second family within the children's generation. We're all still called 'the children', however. We did visit a lot because all the sisters were really very, very close.
Question: What kind of big brother was John?
Julia: Obviously he didn't live with us full-time. You look back now and think, 'Why didn't we think it was odd?' But we didn't, it was just the way it was. He'd come over weekends, we'd get up and John would be there. The older we got the more he came round with his mates until he was there almost nightly and at lunch. When he was younger he used to take us to the park. My mother would say, 'Take the girls to the swings please, John.' He'd take us out while he played football with his friends and we had a go on the swings. He used to take us to the pic¬tures under duress. We went to see the Elvis film, Love Me Tender, which we saw twice because we were abandoned there. He'd watch it once with us and then run off. I don't know where he went, probably to see his friends or something. Then he'd pick us up after the second show.
Question: Tell me about John's bedroom at Mendips. Julia: Well, he had this small front room which you could just about get you and the cat in. You'd open the door and he'd have skeletons and things flying about with their arms all going in the air. John made them himself. The lights went on and off and these puppets jiggled around when you opened the door. Question: Tell me something about John as a boy. Julia: Happy as a lark, whimsical, always dancing up and down, very good with us girls. Really just a lovable big brother hanging around the house. We were all great friends.
Question: People say that he was rather aggressive, though.
Julia: He wasn't within the family. He was always a very family-oriented person.
Question: What about his relationship with Mimi? It was rather tempestuous, wasn't it?
Julia: Not always. I think as a teenager he was certainly a rebel. He rebelled against school as he didn't really like the uniformity. He also rebelled against art school by not working when he finally got there. I don't really know what he would have done if he hadn't broken into music so successfully.
Question: Tell me about John singing to you girls.
Julia: He'd sing to all of us, not just Jacqui and me. He'd perform for all the children in the road. My mother would do exactly the same. Question: What did he sing?
Julia: Very simple stuff on the piano. And later Elvis songs, just banging away.
Question: Did John and Mimi argue much?
Julia: They started having great rows about John's clothes and things. Mimi was doing the bread and butter and looking after us. My mother was the fun girl. It must have been a difficult position for Mimi to be in.
Question: You've commented that your mother and John had a great thing going, humour-wise.
Julia: They both had a fantastic sense of humour. There was a terrific rapport between them. There was a lot of wit flying backwards and forwards.
Question: You've said it really wasn't like a mother—son relationship at all. It was more of a friendship.
Julia: Well, I mean this is how it is when you got older, isn't it? She would still do the washing for him, though.
Question: Did he always call her Mummy?
Julia: Always.
Question: Do you remember John's first girlfriend?
Julia: The girls always liked John. This one girl, Barbara Baker, appeared a lot. She lived up in Woolton near Mimi. John was coming down more and more so she used to show up as well. We would all be playing and there she was. I remember once she asked us to go and etch John. We did and my mother came out and shouted, 'What do
you want from him?' The next thing I know, John was walking down he road with her. They would cuddle together in the grass.
Question: I've heard that Mimi once wanted John to accept a job as a )us conductor.
Julia: It must be very worrying to see somebody you're responsible for living in a dream when their whole life is stretching out in front of
them.
Question: Did you ever go to the Cavern to see the Beatles?
Julia: Everybody went to the Cavern. I didn't go as much as I might lave as we lived quite a long way out of town. The last bus back was ridiculously early so we couldn't really stay out very late.
Question: How did it affect your life when the Beatles became very successful in Liverpool before they went to America? Julia: At school it was nice. We spent quite a few double A level lessons sitting and chatting about the Beatles. Still, the school, like me, had grown up with it and we were all a little blase about the whole thing. I went down to London on shopping trips and it was all very exciting. Kenwood [John's mansion in Weybridge] was just being renovated.
Question: Do you remember when the Beatles went to the States for the
first time?
Julia: Oh yes. That's when John really departed from our lives.
Question: Didn't Mimi go on one of those trips?
Julia: Mimi went on a world tour. She went to Hong Kong and brought
us all back watches and things. We have family in New Zealand and
she went to stay for about six months, but that wasn't a Beatle thing.
She went to see her family and stopped off in Hong Kong on the way
and brought us all stuff back.
Question: Do you remember what it was like at Mendips when the fans
were going nuts in the garden?
Julia: Oh yes. That was awful. Poor Mimi. I really felt sorry for her. She
was beleaguered by people camping in the garden.
Question: How did John change when he got money?
Julia: He was still very family-minded.
Question: People have told me he never really cared that much about
money.
Julia: I think anyone who asked for it, got it. Which prevented a lot of people who maybe would have liked to have done, from asking. John
was very family-minded and lovable. The Beatles were doing shows at the same time. He did a gig once and we all went to watch it. We were in the dressing room and Mick Jagger was there. People would come in to wish them well and everyone was drinking Cokes. Jacqui and I were put in the front row. We wanted to go out front so we could see the show. When it got a bit raucous John said, 'Get the girls,' and we were hauled onto the stage and watched from the wings because we didn't realise everyone was raging forward.
Question: You must have felt very special going up on stage when all the other girls were clambering about.
Julia: No, it wasn't as glamorous as that. We were just hauled up belly-wise into the wings to get out of the way.
Question: Where did John and Cynthia stay when they first got married?
Julia: I was there chatting with Mimi in the morning and she said, 'John wants to see me this afternoon. I know what he wants, he wants to move in and I'm going to let him.' I said, 'What are you going to do, Mimi?' She said, 'I'm going to live upstairs,' and that's exactly what she did. John's bedroom was converted into her kitchen. Just a tiny little cooker where John's bed was and she made the front bedroom her sit¬ting room.
Question: How long did they live there?
Julia: I don't know. A couple of months or something. Then I don't know where they went. I remember them moving in, though. Question: How did Mimi react to John's initial success? Julia: At that stage you couldn't really argue with it, could you? Question: When he first got money, what did he do ? Did he run out and buy a big car?
Julia: He couldn't drive until he lived at Kenwood. He didn't have a licence so he didn't buy a car. I don't know when he bought his Mini, but I know that Harrie [John's Aunt Harriet] borrowed it for a time because John couldn't yet drive.
Question: Do you recall hearing the Beatles on the radio very early on?
Julia: We'd come home from school and John was always there to inform us when the Beatles would be on the radio. At that time they did a big concert in Liverpool and we all had front-row seats. That was our first experience of the wildness of Beatlemania. We were locked in the dressing room, unable to get out. I think that's when it really hit me. I thought, 'What is going on?'
Question: Tell me about these wild shopping sprees John and Cynthia took you on.
Julia: We had whatever we wanted. Jacqui got a pair of beautiful leather trousers. It was just clothes beyond what you would have normally been able to afford. Expensive jumpers, records and things. Question: What about your visit to George Harrison's house? Julia: We went to Esher not long after George moved in. John said, 'We're just going across for a visit.' Cynthia drove. It was John, Cynthia, Julian, Jacqui and me.
Question: Was he married to Pattie Boyd at the time? Julia: I don't know. All I could think was that she was the Smith's Crisps Girl and she had a lisp. The house was very bare, but nice. There were cushions on all the floors. I think it was the last time I've ever per¬sonally seen George. We'd seen Pattie once before at Woolworth's in Liverpool promoting Smith's Crisps.
Question: How did you and John get back together again after all those years?
Julia: Mater [John and Julia's Aunt Elizabeth] rang one night just after John had gone back with Yoko in 1976. He told Mater, 'Get in touch with the girls.' He said that he wanted to see us. He told her that he had been thinking about Mother a lot and wanted to make it up to us. He said he could set Allan up in a business and if we needed anything we were only to ask. Probably, if he hadn't been such a mega-bucker we'd have been in touch before. If he had emigrated to Australia and become a sheep farmer I would have gone and stayed, but his financial position put him out of touch with just about everyone. Allan was saying, 'Are you going to ring him?' 'I need time,' I said, 'I need to think about it.'
Question: Did Allan want you to call?
Julia: Yes, but he wasn't a money-grubbing idiot. The first time I phoned I didn't know what to expect. A woman answered and said she'd been expecting my call for some time. She asked all kinds of ques¬tions, my maiden name, who had given me the number, my father's middle name. After a few minutes I said, 'Forget it, just forget it, it's all wrong.' As I put the phone down I heard John shout, 'Hang on, don't hang up! I'm sorry about that, but you have no idea how many sisters, cousins and aunties I've got.' Then we had a long, long chat. Mostly he was going on about, 'Do you recall laughing with Mummy and do you remember her spotted dress?' He said he had a new baby and asked about ours and Jacqui's and wondered if ours looked Irish. He wanted to know if my daughter Nicki had red hair like Mummy's. We didn't talk about being famous at all.
Question: Were there any tears?
Julia: Oh yes, he cried and I cried. We spent a lot of money crying! John said, 'I've thought a lot about you over the years. Really and truly I have.' We were talking about how he felt about Mummy and how he felt now that he had a baby. He said he'd screwed things up with Julian, completely. 'I've been looking for a family and now I realise I've had one all along,' he told me. I said, 'Yes, you have, but we're here and you're there.' Then we talked about his green card and how the US government was trying to boot him out of the country. There was so much he wanted to do in America and if he left they wouldn't let him back in. 'You'll have to come over,' he said. But nothing ever mater¬ialised. Ironically, it was John who said, 'We'd better get off this call. Next time, call collect.' 'You mean reverse the charges?' I said. 'Speak to me in English, you've gone American on us!' Question: Didn't John ask you to send him some family photographs? Julia: He asked if I had any of Mummy and I said yes. There was one in particular where she was pregnant with Jacqui and I had this big, furry hat on. Leila, Stan and John were also in it. Allan did a twenty-by-sixty black and white print of it, but with only Mummy and John. I even¬tually snipped John off it because I only wanted a photograph of my mother. John said, 'Send it to me, please. Send it to me.' I said, 'You must be joking. You must have far more photographs than I. You should send me what you've got!' He said, 'The stupid reporters took them all and I never got any of them back. I haven't a single one of Mummy.' The next day we packed up loads of photographs and sent them over.
Question: How long did that first call last?
Julia: Two and a half hours. Allan paid the bill. It was enormous. After that, I called collect.
Question: Was it difficult getting through to John on the phone?
Julia: Sometimes I got through to John, sometimes his secretary and sometimes to Yoko. Initially it was all, 'Yes, I'll go get John and yes, here he is.' Sometimes, however, Yoko just broke in on a phone call. That was fine. We never said anything she wouldn't have already known, I'm sure. In the first phone call when John said, 'You should have come to see me. I have thought about you and Jacqui. Recently in the last year I've thought about you more than ever. I wanted a family and now I realise I've had one all along. You should have come to find me,' I really think he was right. I should have made more of an effort. The onus was more on me than him. I mean, John could have rung, there's no doubt about that. I thought, we'll get in touch and just see what's happening. The next thing I heard was that he was coming over in January of 1980. It was on the family grapevine.
Question: Tell me about the letter you got from Yoko. Julia: In the midst of John writing me letters, after I sent some photo¬graphs over, Yoko wrote to me. It was just headed, 'Summer of '75, New York City.' It was just a chatty letter saying that Jacqui looks like John when he's in good condition, chatting about Sean and what they did together. I was quite surprised though to see that it was from Yoko and not John.
Question: What did John tell you he'd been up to during all those years he spent away from the music business?
Julia: I asked him what he did with himself and he said he was a house-husband. He looked after Sean. He was going to give him the years he hadn't given Julian, which he always regretted. He was steeped in things like changing the baby and seeing to his needs. He also learned how to bake bread and was always asking me how to cook. He asked me how hard my loaves were and how soggy bread was supposed to be in the middle. He said he always wanted to look at them when he knew he shouldn't open the oven. 'Wasn't it lovely eating it straight out of the oven,' and things like that. As children, none of us cooked. We always came in from school to a full delicious meal every night. We never had to do anything. So we left home not knowing how to boil an egg. Now John was learning on his own. He told me that at first his bread was rock-hard and couldn't be eaten. Then he talked about cooking meat. His favourite must have been lamb. When he came home to Harrie's with Yoko in 1969 she cooked him a leg of lamb when he was all macrobiotic and he loved it. When Cynthia and he were entertaining at Kenwood he particularly wanted her to cook a leg of lamb. Then he asked me, 'How do you cook lamb?' And I was saying, 'I just roast it, I don't do anything particular.' 'Do you put it in baking foil or not?' It was like two old women exchanging kitchen news. He was making me laugh, saying, 'You've no idea how exhausting it is looking after a baby.' I said, 'I'm on my second one now, of course I know.' He seemed to be thoroughly enjoying life. He said he loved going to the park with Sean and Yoko, pushing the baby.
Julia Baird is John Lennon's younger half-sister. Holding several degrees, she is today a French teacher and lives outside Liverpool. Julia has three children.
LOST LENNON "LSD TRIP" TAPES SURFACE AFTER 42 YEARS PUT UP FOR SALE FOR 150K
The Unreleased ‘Kenwood Tapes’
Recorded By John Lennon In His
Attic Home Studio
Weybridge, Surrey, 1967
The extended original tapes on sale for $150,000
Please contact: Curator
milesfar@hotmail.com
THE ATTIC STUDIO ‘KENWOOD’
Beatle John Lennon bought his home ‘Kenwood’ on July 15, 1964, on the advice of The Beatles' accountants, Dr. Walter Strach, and James Isherwood. Cliff Richard and Tom Jones had earlier bought homes on the St. George's Hill estate. Though reportedly not liking Kenwood (describing it as a "stopover" on the way to something better) Lennon spent twice the original £20,000 ($40,588) (£257,200 today) purchase price on renovations, reducing its 22 rooms to 17, landscaping the grounds and building an outdoor swimming pool. Much of the initial decoration was left to interior designer Kenneth Partridge, whom Lennon employed after being impressed by his design work at a lavish party held by Beatles' manager Brian Epstein to celebrate the Beatles' departure for their first tour of the USA. However, when Partridge had completed his work, Lennon and then-wife Cynthia immediately made a number of further alterations which better reflected their taste. Cynthia's mother was given an allowance to fill the shelves of the house with antiques and antiquarian books, and a heavy sliding wooden door was installed at the gate entrance to keep out fans.
Kenwood has 3 floors: on the ground floor during the Lennon period the front door opened onto an entrance hall, where Lennon placed a suit of armor and a gorilla suit. Across the hall was a large living room, which had black carpets, two 18-foot sofas and a marble fireplace. To the left of the hall was a toilet, and through the living room was a dining room, where purple, velvet wallpaper was put up.[15] Adjacent to the dining room, at the back of the house, was a small sunroom. This was decorated with various pictures, caricatures and stickers, such as the one from the Safe as Milk debut album (1967) by Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band, and one advertising the Monterey Pop Festival. Photos published by The Beatles Book Monthly show the shelves of the sunroom filled with articles such as a large, ornate cross, a Mickey Mouse doll and a mortar and pestle, reportedly used by Lennon to mix various combinations of cocaine, amphetamine, barbiturates and LSD There was also a yellow sofa or chaise-longue upon which Lennon would spend much of his time. It was a present from his aunt, Elizabeth Sutherland (née Stanley) also known as Mater. Behind the sunroom was the split-level kitchen where state-of-the-art appliances were installed, so complex that a tutor had to come and give the Lennon’s lessons in their use.
Completing the ground floor was a smaller lounge, and a games room. The main staircase to the upper floors was situated in the entrance hall. The house had 6 bedrooms, with 5 on the first floor. The giant master bedroom featured a huge double bed, white carpets and an en-suite bathroom complete with sunken bathtub, shower, Jacuzzi and 'his and hers' wash basins. Lennon wanted the guest bedrooms to contain works of art by students of the Liverpool Art College. In particular, two drawings by former Beatles' bassist Stuart Sutcliffe were hung, for what Lennon described as "sentimental reasons". The first floor also had a study. On the top floor was the attic, which Lennon claimed as his own, painting the ceiling one bright color, then changing to another when the paint ran out, and installing most of his musical equipment there. John originally used the space as a painter’s studio but then reinvented it as his home recording studio. For as a time Lennon’s errant father Fred and his young wife Pauline occupied the guest room.
Lennon did much of his now iconic songwriting in the attic, where he had several German Studer tape recorders. Little was done with them until Paul McCartney and an engineer from EMI’s Abbey Road Studios came over and helped re-install them in sequence, so overdubs could be made. Lennon could thus record his own double tracked song demos. The attic also contained a mellotron, an electric organ, a piano, a Vox AC30 and several guitars, all of which were used when songwriting. Aside from the mini-studio, the attic contained 2 other rooms - a small guest bedroom and a games room used for recreation. Lennon filled it with three full sets of the model car racing game, Scalextric.
The mellotron is an electronic synthesizer than was a forerunner to the famous Moog synthesizer of the late 1960's (developed in Lockport, New York by one Mr. Moog). John had one of the first made installed in his attic music room in Kenwood, along with multiple reel-to-reel tape machines and other state-of-the-art gadgetry that allowed him to doodle for hours, making up various pieces. Many ideas and techniques first experimented with in John's home studio ended up on finished Beatles recordings most notably, early "Strawberry Fields Forever" home demos. Some of the incidental music heard in the Magical Mystery Tour film were recorded there, too.
THE ‘KENWOOD’ ‘MIND MOVIE’ TAPES
The tapes currently on offer are some of the many private home recordings John Lennon made here during his extended LSD period between 1966 and 1969. These particular recordings were made in late 1966. Along with the occasional collaboration of friends Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Star and, most notably, Beatles aid Terry Doran, Lennon made these long lost, unreleased historic tapes for his own private use and experimentation. In early 1969 Lennon gave the one and only master to his close friend and Apple promotional manager Derek Wyn Taylor. In these extraordinary tapes we see Lennon the actor, comedian, alchemist, eccentric composer, LSD disciple and unabashed loon. Here he unwinds his mind to become a host of strange characters with the obvious goal of pleasing only himself. A kind of fractured audio diary of the man behind the Beatles ‘Sgt. Pepper’ Lennon reveals himself and his private passion for characterization, improvisational comedy and acting as never before. We see Lennon now the quirky avant gardest and psychedelic humorist spewing forth numerous characters inspired, one suspects, by a potent mix of various drugs including, LSD, hashish, mescaline and god knows what else. Many of John's 'comic kits' often featured tape loops and synthesized sounds these tapes however, for the most part do not. Commercially much of the spirit of the inspired lunacy of Lennon’s secret spoken word tapes eventually made their way on to such Beatles songs as ‘You Know My Name Look Up The Number’, ‘Revolution #9’, ‘What A Shame Maryjane’, The Beatles Christmas LP, among others. Examples of solo Lennon releases which drew from this well spring of animated characters created by the pop genius are ‘Once upon a Pool Table’ and ‘Serve Yourself’ (recorded near the end of John’s life). Lennon later named the tapes he made in this offbeat style ‘mind movies’. Derek Taylor has stated that for a time Lennon considered editing these tapes together (see handwritten song list included in this lot) for possible release in conjunction with ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’. The idea was to re-record them at EMI Studios and mix them together with sound effects to enlarge the Sgt. Pepper ‘live show’ concept to include Lennon’s semi-vaudevillian comedy act. Plans were quickly scrapped and the tapes lay forgotten for decades. One can draw parallels from Lennon’s wild Weybridge recordings to Lewis Carrol, Dylan Thomas, the Goon Show, Vivian Stanshall and the anarchic Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band and others of a similar mindset. Although John drew from the same well as his historical peers, whatever he took he magically transformed and forever made his own. Lennon’s great time tested music was but the tip of the iceberg of this certified genius. If you really want to understand this singular, complex soul then you must also look to his only rarely heard comedic/avant garde/poetic/mad home recordings in order to enter into the vast sphere of the man’s almost Shakespearian manipulation of words.
ENTER YOKO ONO
In was in this attic studio space that Lennon made his first recording with his future second wife Japanese composer and conceptual artist Yoko Ono in May 1968.. John’s wife Cynthia had gone on vacation to Greece, leaving Lennon at Kenwood with his boyhood friend Pete Shotton. After several days of taking LSD and smoking marijuana, Lennon convened a meeting at the Beatles' business HQ to inform the others that he felt he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Later that day he phoned Ono, whose own husband Tony (Anthony Cox) was in Paris on business, and invited her to Kenwood. Shotton left the two alone, whereupon Lennon invited Ono (who had also taken LSD) up to the attic to hear his experimental recordings (including the ‘Kenwood’ tapes). For the rest of the night, the two collaborated on what became the Two Virgins album, and then "made love at dawn", according to Lennon. Cynthia returned early from her vacation, and discovered Lennon and Ono sitting cross-legged on the floor and staring intently into each other's eyes (Ono was wearing one of Cynthia's bathrobes). In a state of shock, Cynthia then left to stay with friends for a few days, although John and Cynthia were reconciled for a time upon her return to Kenwood. It was during Cynthia's next holiday in Italy that Lennon and Ono finally entered into a permanent relationship, and John asked for a divorce. Cynthia, together with Julian and her mother, moved back into Kenwood for the summer, where Paul McCartney visited her to offer his support. On the journey to Kenwood he composed the song, ‘Hey Jude’, which eventually became The Beatles' biggest selling single. Lennon and Ono, meanwhile, were without a permanent address for a time. They stayed with McCartney at his house in Cavendish Avenue (where it is alleged that a further breach occurred in the Lennon/McCartney relationship when Lennon discovered a derogatory note written by McCartney) and with Peter Brown, and then Neil Aspinall, before moving into an apartment leased by Starr at Montagu Square in London. They were evicted from this flat by the owner following a raid by the drug squad on 18 October 1968, and subsequent November trial, and so moved back into Kenwood for a short time, which had been vacated by Cynthia. In the new year the Ono/Lennons moved into the Dorchester Hotel in London, leaving Kenwood for the last time.
THE TAPES MOVE ON
In the early 1980’s Derek Taylor quietly passed on several items from his mountain of precious Beatles memorabilia to friends. One prominent Beatles related personality purchased ‘the Kenwood Tapes’ from Taylor in Henley–On-Thames, Oxfordshire for an undisclosed, but hefty sum. Derek made this individual promise to never reveal their sale or release them until well after his death. That promise has been well kept as Taylor died from cancer on September 8, 1997. Unreleased in any part or form from the time they were made by Lennon decades ago the sole and only copy remarkable tapes are not up for commercial sale.
TRACK LISTING FROM ORGINAL LENNON TAPE LOG
Trousers Off (Harris Tweed)
Stoned Ringo In The Parlor (with Ringo Starr)
Don’t Be Stupid Mam, I’m A Christian
Radio Oxfam (with Terry Doran)
Morning Shave, Weybridge, Surrey
A Nice Little Trick
Here’s The Harp (Inlay Of The Room)
Lord & Lady Pimple & The Saga Of Sir Starchy (with Ringo Starr)
An Abbey Road Slash (with The Beatles)
A Slight Interjection
When Dimlery Was King (The Running Doctor with Arnold of Eden)
A Faint Resemblance
The Shipping Strike (with Ringo Starr)
Radio Play #2 (The Not So Amazing Mr. Williamson)
DESCRIPTION
Total Time:
Media: Cassette
Recording: Analog
Date Of Recording: Late 1966 and possibly early 1967
Lot: The Tape, Handwritten Track Listing (Not By Lennon), History, COA
Recorded By John Lennon In His
Attic Home Studio
Weybridge, Surrey, 1967
The extended original tapes on sale for $150,000
Please contact: Curator
milesfar@hotmail.com
THE ATTIC STUDIO ‘KENWOOD’
Beatle John Lennon bought his home ‘Kenwood’ on July 15, 1964, on the advice of The Beatles' accountants, Dr. Walter Strach, and James Isherwood. Cliff Richard and Tom Jones had earlier bought homes on the St. George's Hill estate. Though reportedly not liking Kenwood (describing it as a "stopover" on the way to something better) Lennon spent twice the original £20,000 ($40,588) (£257,200 today) purchase price on renovations, reducing its 22 rooms to 17, landscaping the grounds and building an outdoor swimming pool. Much of the initial decoration was left to interior designer Kenneth Partridge, whom Lennon employed after being impressed by his design work at a lavish party held by Beatles' manager Brian Epstein to celebrate the Beatles' departure for their first tour of the USA. However, when Partridge had completed his work, Lennon and then-wife Cynthia immediately made a number of further alterations which better reflected their taste. Cynthia's mother was given an allowance to fill the shelves of the house with antiques and antiquarian books, and a heavy sliding wooden door was installed at the gate entrance to keep out fans.
Kenwood has 3 floors: on the ground floor during the Lennon period the front door opened onto an entrance hall, where Lennon placed a suit of armor and a gorilla suit. Across the hall was a large living room, which had black carpets, two 18-foot sofas and a marble fireplace. To the left of the hall was a toilet, and through the living room was a dining room, where purple, velvet wallpaper was put up.[15] Adjacent to the dining room, at the back of the house, was a small sunroom. This was decorated with various pictures, caricatures and stickers, such as the one from the Safe as Milk debut album (1967) by Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band, and one advertising the Monterey Pop Festival. Photos published by The Beatles Book Monthly show the shelves of the sunroom filled with articles such as a large, ornate cross, a Mickey Mouse doll and a mortar and pestle, reportedly used by Lennon to mix various combinations of cocaine, amphetamine, barbiturates and LSD There was also a yellow sofa or chaise-longue upon which Lennon would spend much of his time. It was a present from his aunt, Elizabeth Sutherland (née Stanley) also known as Mater. Behind the sunroom was the split-level kitchen where state-of-the-art appliances were installed, so complex that a tutor had to come and give the Lennon’s lessons in their use.
Completing the ground floor was a smaller lounge, and a games room. The main staircase to the upper floors was situated in the entrance hall. The house had 6 bedrooms, with 5 on the first floor. The giant master bedroom featured a huge double bed, white carpets and an en-suite bathroom complete with sunken bathtub, shower, Jacuzzi and 'his and hers' wash basins. Lennon wanted the guest bedrooms to contain works of art by students of the Liverpool Art College. In particular, two drawings by former Beatles' bassist Stuart Sutcliffe were hung, for what Lennon described as "sentimental reasons". The first floor also had a study. On the top floor was the attic, which Lennon claimed as his own, painting the ceiling one bright color, then changing to another when the paint ran out, and installing most of his musical equipment there. John originally used the space as a painter’s studio but then reinvented it as his home recording studio. For as a time Lennon’s errant father Fred and his young wife Pauline occupied the guest room.
Lennon did much of his now iconic songwriting in the attic, where he had several German Studer tape recorders. Little was done with them until Paul McCartney and an engineer from EMI’s Abbey Road Studios came over and helped re-install them in sequence, so overdubs could be made. Lennon could thus record his own double tracked song demos. The attic also contained a mellotron, an electric organ, a piano, a Vox AC30 and several guitars, all of which were used when songwriting. Aside from the mini-studio, the attic contained 2 other rooms - a small guest bedroom and a games room used for recreation. Lennon filled it with three full sets of the model car racing game, Scalextric.
The mellotron is an electronic synthesizer than was a forerunner to the famous Moog synthesizer of the late 1960's (developed in Lockport, New York by one Mr. Moog). John had one of the first made installed in his attic music room in Kenwood, along with multiple reel-to-reel tape machines and other state-of-the-art gadgetry that allowed him to doodle for hours, making up various pieces. Many ideas and techniques first experimented with in John's home studio ended up on finished Beatles recordings most notably, early "Strawberry Fields Forever" home demos. Some of the incidental music heard in the Magical Mystery Tour film were recorded there, too.
THE ‘KENWOOD’ ‘MIND MOVIE’ TAPES
The tapes currently on offer are some of the many private home recordings John Lennon made here during his extended LSD period between 1966 and 1969. These particular recordings were made in late 1966. Along with the occasional collaboration of friends Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Star and, most notably, Beatles aid Terry Doran, Lennon made these long lost, unreleased historic tapes for his own private use and experimentation. In early 1969 Lennon gave the one and only master to his close friend and Apple promotional manager Derek Wyn Taylor. In these extraordinary tapes we see Lennon the actor, comedian, alchemist, eccentric composer, LSD disciple and unabashed loon. Here he unwinds his mind to become a host of strange characters with the obvious goal of pleasing only himself. A kind of fractured audio diary of the man behind the Beatles ‘Sgt. Pepper’ Lennon reveals himself and his private passion for characterization, improvisational comedy and acting as never before. We see Lennon now the quirky avant gardest and psychedelic humorist spewing forth numerous characters inspired, one suspects, by a potent mix of various drugs including, LSD, hashish, mescaline and god knows what else. Many of John's 'comic kits' often featured tape loops and synthesized sounds these tapes however, for the most part do not. Commercially much of the spirit of the inspired lunacy of Lennon’s secret spoken word tapes eventually made their way on to such Beatles songs as ‘You Know My Name Look Up The Number’, ‘Revolution #9’, ‘What A Shame Maryjane’, The Beatles Christmas LP, among others. Examples of solo Lennon releases which drew from this well spring of animated characters created by the pop genius are ‘Once upon a Pool Table’ and ‘Serve Yourself’ (recorded near the end of John’s life). Lennon later named the tapes he made in this offbeat style ‘mind movies’. Derek Taylor has stated that for a time Lennon considered editing these tapes together (see handwritten song list included in this lot) for possible release in conjunction with ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’. The idea was to re-record them at EMI Studios and mix them together with sound effects to enlarge the Sgt. Pepper ‘live show’ concept to include Lennon’s semi-vaudevillian comedy act. Plans were quickly scrapped and the tapes lay forgotten for decades. One can draw parallels from Lennon’s wild Weybridge recordings to Lewis Carrol, Dylan Thomas, the Goon Show, Vivian Stanshall and the anarchic Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band and others of a similar mindset. Although John drew from the same well as his historical peers, whatever he took he magically transformed and forever made his own. Lennon’s great time tested music was but the tip of the iceberg of this certified genius. If you really want to understand this singular, complex soul then you must also look to his only rarely heard comedic/avant garde/poetic/mad home recordings in order to enter into the vast sphere of the man’s almost Shakespearian manipulation of words.
ENTER YOKO ONO
In was in this attic studio space that Lennon made his first recording with his future second wife Japanese composer and conceptual artist Yoko Ono in May 1968.. John’s wife Cynthia had gone on vacation to Greece, leaving Lennon at Kenwood with his boyhood friend Pete Shotton. After several days of taking LSD and smoking marijuana, Lennon convened a meeting at the Beatles' business HQ to inform the others that he felt he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. Later that day he phoned Ono, whose own husband Tony (Anthony Cox) was in Paris on business, and invited her to Kenwood. Shotton left the two alone, whereupon Lennon invited Ono (who had also taken LSD) up to the attic to hear his experimental recordings (including the ‘Kenwood’ tapes). For the rest of the night, the two collaborated on what became the Two Virgins album, and then "made love at dawn", according to Lennon. Cynthia returned early from her vacation, and discovered Lennon and Ono sitting cross-legged on the floor and staring intently into each other's eyes (Ono was wearing one of Cynthia's bathrobes). In a state of shock, Cynthia then left to stay with friends for a few days, although John and Cynthia were reconciled for a time upon her return to Kenwood. It was during Cynthia's next holiday in Italy that Lennon and Ono finally entered into a permanent relationship, and John asked for a divorce. Cynthia, together with Julian and her mother, moved back into Kenwood for the summer, where Paul McCartney visited her to offer his support. On the journey to Kenwood he composed the song, ‘Hey Jude’, which eventually became The Beatles' biggest selling single. Lennon and Ono, meanwhile, were without a permanent address for a time. They stayed with McCartney at his house in Cavendish Avenue (where it is alleged that a further breach occurred in the Lennon/McCartney relationship when Lennon discovered a derogatory note written by McCartney) and with Peter Brown, and then Neil Aspinall, before moving into an apartment leased by Starr at Montagu Square in London. They were evicted from this flat by the owner following a raid by the drug squad on 18 October 1968, and subsequent November trial, and so moved back into Kenwood for a short time, which had been vacated by Cynthia. In the new year the Ono/Lennons moved into the Dorchester Hotel in London, leaving Kenwood for the last time.
THE TAPES MOVE ON
In the early 1980’s Derek Taylor quietly passed on several items from his mountain of precious Beatles memorabilia to friends. One prominent Beatles related personality purchased ‘the Kenwood Tapes’ from Taylor in Henley–On-Thames, Oxfordshire for an undisclosed, but hefty sum. Derek made this individual promise to never reveal their sale or release them until well after his death. That promise has been well kept as Taylor died from cancer on September 8, 1997. Unreleased in any part or form from the time they were made by Lennon decades ago the sole and only copy remarkable tapes are not up for commercial sale.
TRACK LISTING FROM ORGINAL LENNON TAPE LOG
Trousers Off (Harris Tweed)
Stoned Ringo In The Parlor (with Ringo Starr)
Don’t Be Stupid Mam, I’m A Christian
Radio Oxfam (with Terry Doran)
Morning Shave, Weybridge, Surrey
A Nice Little Trick
Here’s The Harp (Inlay Of The Room)
Lord & Lady Pimple & The Saga Of Sir Starchy (with Ringo Starr)
An Abbey Road Slash (with The Beatles)
A Slight Interjection
When Dimlery Was King (The Running Doctor with Arnold of Eden)
A Faint Resemblance
The Shipping Strike (with Ringo Starr)
Radio Play #2 (The Not So Amazing Mr. Williamson)
DESCRIPTION
Total Time:
Media: Cassette
Recording: Analog
Date Of Recording: Late 1966 and possibly early 1967
Lot: The Tape, Handwritten Track Listing (Not By Lennon), History, COA
GEORGE HARRISON SPEAKS WITH GEOFFREY GIULIANO
Hambilden, Oxfordshire
Winter 1984
Geoffrey Giuliano: How do you remember Prabhupada?
George Harrison: Prabhupada always used to say he was ‘the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna.’ He was very, very humble. The thing about Srila Prabhupada, he was more like a dear friend than anything. We used to sit in my house and talk for hours.
Geoffrey: I understand on his deathbed he called you his archangel, took a ring from his finger, and instructed his disciples to make sure you got it. Did you?
George: Yes, I’ve got it. I have it.
Geoffrey: Were you his disciple?
George: As far as being a full-fledged devotee, no. I was never really into it that far. I liked him and his philosophy, though. I never followed all the rules and regulations that strictly, however. Except for maybe a few months.
Geoffrey: Anything else to say about the Hare Krsna movement?
George: Well, I love the food. When I visited their place in India [Mayapur] last year, I got up with them at four in the morning and after mangle arty [early morning prayers] they brought me a forty-course breakfast, all on silver. I was the honored guest. Which, of course, is better than being the un-honored guest!
Geoffrey: What is your attitude towards spiritual life these days?
George: I was at the airport in Honolulu and I met a guy dressed in these old saffron corduroys. He approached me with a book and said, ‘My guru wants you to have this.’ I couldn’t make out if he recognized me or not. I said, ‘What do you mean, your guru wants me to have this? Does he know I’m here?’ The book said, ‘Something Something Guru, the World’s Spiritual Leader.’ I read the book and this guy doesn’t like anybody. He ran down Sai Baba, Yogananda, and everybody. Although he did quote Prabhupada’s books (and everyone else’s for that matter). It seemed very dogmatic. I’m just not into that. It’s the organization of religion that turns me off a bit. I try to go into myself. Like Donovan said, ‘You’ve got to go into your own temple once a day.’
Geoffrey: How do you feel about the Beatles’ myth today?
George: All this stuff about the Beatles being able to save the world was rubbish. I can’t even save myself. It was just people trying to put the responsibility on our shoulders. The Beatles saved the world from boredom. Even when we got to America the first time, everybody was running around with Bermuda shorts on, brush cuts, and braces on their teeth. But we didn’t really create any great change, we just...
Geoffrey: Heralded it?
George: Heralded that change of consciousness that happened in the sixties. We went along with it, that’s all.
Geoffrey: Gave it a voice, maybe?
George: Yeah, I guess.
Geoffrey: I met Yoko recently. She seems fine, you know. She seems to be trying to carry on with life, her and Sean, who, by the way, is a very bright kid.
George: Yeah. I’d love to meet Sean. I bet he is. I don’t know, the whole Beatles thing is like a horror story, a nightmare. I don’t even like to talk about it. I just hate it.
Geoffrey: Sorry. What about gardening? I know you love that. Don’t you have all kinds of exotic plants and trees from around the world up at Friar Park?
George: No, not really. I get all my stuff from a local nursery here in Henley. I’ve got a few gardeners working the place. Trying to spruce it up a bit. It was let go for years, but it’s coming along, little by little.
Winter 1984
Geoffrey Giuliano: How do you remember Prabhupada?
George Harrison: Prabhupada always used to say he was ‘the servant of the servant of the servant of Krsna.’ He was very, very humble. The thing about Srila Prabhupada, he was more like a dear friend than anything. We used to sit in my house and talk for hours.
Geoffrey: I understand on his deathbed he called you his archangel, took a ring from his finger, and instructed his disciples to make sure you got it. Did you?
George: Yes, I’ve got it. I have it.
Geoffrey: Were you his disciple?
George: As far as being a full-fledged devotee, no. I was never really into it that far. I liked him and his philosophy, though. I never followed all the rules and regulations that strictly, however. Except for maybe a few months.
Geoffrey: Anything else to say about the Hare Krsna movement?
George: Well, I love the food. When I visited their place in India [Mayapur] last year, I got up with them at four in the morning and after mangle arty [early morning prayers] they brought me a forty-course breakfast, all on silver. I was the honored guest. Which, of course, is better than being the un-honored guest!
Geoffrey: What is your attitude towards spiritual life these days?
George: I was at the airport in Honolulu and I met a guy dressed in these old saffron corduroys. He approached me with a book and said, ‘My guru wants you to have this.’ I couldn’t make out if he recognized me or not. I said, ‘What do you mean, your guru wants me to have this? Does he know I’m here?’ The book said, ‘Something Something Guru, the World’s Spiritual Leader.’ I read the book and this guy doesn’t like anybody. He ran down Sai Baba, Yogananda, and everybody. Although he did quote Prabhupada’s books (and everyone else’s for that matter). It seemed very dogmatic. I’m just not into that. It’s the organization of religion that turns me off a bit. I try to go into myself. Like Donovan said, ‘You’ve got to go into your own temple once a day.’
Geoffrey: How do you feel about the Beatles’ myth today?
George: All this stuff about the Beatles being able to save the world was rubbish. I can’t even save myself. It was just people trying to put the responsibility on our shoulders. The Beatles saved the world from boredom. Even when we got to America the first time, everybody was running around with Bermuda shorts on, brush cuts, and braces on their teeth. But we didn’t really create any great change, we just...
Geoffrey: Heralded it?
George: Heralded that change of consciousness that happened in the sixties. We went along with it, that’s all.
Geoffrey: Gave it a voice, maybe?
George: Yeah, I guess.
Geoffrey: I met Yoko recently. She seems fine, you know. She seems to be trying to carry on with life, her and Sean, who, by the way, is a very bright kid.
George: Yeah. I’d love to meet Sean. I bet he is. I don’t know, the whole Beatles thing is like a horror story, a nightmare. I don’t even like to talk about it. I just hate it.
Geoffrey: Sorry. What about gardening? I know you love that. Don’t you have all kinds of exotic plants and trees from around the world up at Friar Park?
George: No, not really. I get all my stuff from a local nursery here in Henley. I’ve got a few gardeners working the place. Trying to spruce it up a bit. It was let go for years, but it’s coming along, little by little.
COSMIC VISIONARY / PETER MAX INTERVIEW
Safety Harbor, Florida
Interview By Vrnda Devi
December 2005
Vrnda Devi: You became involved with the Indian master, Swami Satchitnanda in the 1960’s. How did you first meet him and what was your relationship with him like over the years?
Peter Max: I met him in Paris when I was asked to do a movie with a young man by the name of Connrad Rookes, who was the heir to Avon Cosmetics. The film was called Chapaqua. A fellow who was on his production team was a Peter Max fan. Anyway, I flew out to Paris at his request, and finally, I met the Swami. I saw his eyes and it was like “nobodies home” except an ocean of love, you know? It was a quietness he had inside. I fell in love with him and wanted him to come to America. I knew all of my friends would love him. We all did and he taught us yoga. How to breathe, how to be yogis, how to vegetarians, how to be in love with animal protection. So slowly the Integral Yoga Centers started opening up, 39 centers. It was only a handful of us in the beginning. We’d never done anything like this before. Some of us became very successful, some of us became swamis, and it’s still on going. Swamiji just passed away four months ago. On August 19th he died. He was 87.
Vrnda: I have a daughter that took iniation from Puri Maharaja from The Gaudiya Math of Puri, Orrssia, India, who was over one hundred years old and died just a couple of years ago. I also met Srila Prabhupada or A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.
Peter: Bhaktivedanta Swami? From the Hare Krishna Movement? I knew him. Oh yeah, he was wonderful and very good friends with Swami Satchitananda.
Vrnda: When he looked at you you felt he was right inside. It frightened me the first time. I think I ran away. It was so powerful.
Peter: Yeah, because it’s like there’s no opinion. All there was was you.
Vrnda: Peter, are you still a vegetarian?
Peter: I’m a vegan. When I’m at the easel it’s Peter Max the artist but when I walk away it’s Peter the animal protection person. I’ve gotten to really understand the spirit of animals. I have five cats at home and one of them has become so attached to me, she’s my little girl. Wherever I go she follows. All day long, if I’m home, she’s wherever I am. If I’m in bed she curls right up next to me. I’ve gotten to know her so well that now when I’m in the car and I see the electric wires and there’s birds on top I can see my little Gigi in the birds. You know what I mean? I can sense their little spirits. I got to know the spirit of a little bird, that could be a thousand feet away, because it reminds me of my cat. It’s a very nice thing to know the spirit of an animal.
Vrnda: I keep two pet cows to help teach with our vegetarian project. People see them and tell me, “Wow, I had no idea how beautiful and peaceful they are.” I have a lot of different animals.
Peter; Have you heard about the cow I saved awhile back?
Vrnda: No.
Peter: There was a cow in Cincinnati that jumped over a seven foot fence trying to escape slaughter. Poor thing. You heard about her?
Vrnda: I think I did. But I didn’t know you were involved.
Peter: I was in a post production house editing a video and my friend Greg Allen shows up and as he puts down his bag and gives me a guy hug he says to me, “Did you hear about the cow?’ I said, “What cow?” He says, “the cow in Cincinnati.” I thought he was going to tell me a joke maybe, but it turned out to be a real story. There was a cow in Cincinnati that jumped over a seven foot fence as all the cows before her were stunned and cut into pieces. She saw that. It happened so fast it was just a total freak out. She jumped over the lowest thing which was this fence. When she landed on the other side she fell on her face and hurt herself pretty badly but didn’t break any bones. She was all bruised and ran into the forest miles away. There were helicopters looking for her and the whole city of Cincinnati was up in arms trying to find her. I said, “Greggy, do me a favor. Get me somebody on the phone. So he gets on the computer and finds me a man who writes for the Cincinnati Post, his name was Barry Horseman. So Barry asked me, “Are you Peter Max the artist?” I said, “Yeah. I’m calling about the cow. I must, must, must, adopt this cow. You must let me have her. Whatever it takes!” To make a long story short, I spent the next 55 hours on the phone. About seven days, six seven hours a day. I was number seventy four in line for the cow but a lot of weird people wanted her. People wanted her for their backyard. The cow was wanted by zoos and circus’s and finally, on a Sunday night I got a call telling me that we got the cow. I then donated $180,000 in art to the SPCA of which we’ve sold $90,000 already. There is another $90,000 to go. Anybody who wants portrait that money can go to the SPCA. She’s gained 100 pounds. She’s the exact color of the beige on your dress. The whole cow is one beautiful beige. She’s a three and a half year old girl, and when you understand her plight, that she’s only a little girl, it makes you want to cry! If she were a puppy dog, or a little kitty you would hold her in your arms. She’s the sweetest thing. And the fact that we saved one out of the seven billion that are killed every year I think is great.
Vrnda: Exactly, but we have to start somewhere. I just don’t see how people can see cats and dogs are pets and this other “thing” as food. I don’t understand how they distinguish that. Obviously there is a major cultural disconnect in play somewhere.
Peter: Right, right!
Vrnda: So I try and keep a lot of animals, I love it and people enjoy coming to see them. I have a new cookbook out, Compassionate Cuisine. A vegetarian cookbook.
Peter: Oh nice!
Vrnda: It’s so important that we try and reach people. I just can’t figure out how they eat it.
Peter: It’s hard, but people are people. They eat it from birth so they have no idea it’s wrong. But then when they wake up, or perhaps have a change in their life, some people become vegetarian. They may still eat fish and egg whites. It’s a wonderful thing they have come that far. Then some people take the next step and become vegan. I personally find, even from a health point of view, when you become a vegan you get extremely calm and very healthy. I’ve been a vegan now for almost four years. Before that I was a fairly strict vegetarian but I used to eat egg whites and so forth, as well as stuff that was maybe cooked with butter, milk or eggs. Then I realized I wanted to be totally pure for my body. Then also for the animal’s sake, out of loyalty to the animals you know? I just don’t want to have anything in my body that comes from them.
Vrnda: Well, we take dairy products but only if they’re not commercially produced. Only from lifelong protected cows. All animals have to be protected! Do you consider yourself to be a follower of yogic philosophy and culture?
Peter: I’m a yogi. Yoga is not a religion and thank God, this way all religions are able to embrace yoga. When the Swami used to give seminars we’d have nuns attend, priests, rabbis and even Islamic clerics. They all studied yoga. It creates an inner peace in you. Yoga is over 8000 years old I understand. These yoga ashrams in India were used for people who sometimes were a little bit feisty. Or maybe someone had a son, or daughter, who was a bit nervous and couldn’t control their mood or their upsets. Then they’d go to the yoga ashram and through breathing they’d teach them how to be calm human beings. It’s a psychological training. So instead of going to a therapist in this country you do a little yoga. It’s the BEST therapy in the world!
Vrnda: It’s really important today with everything that’s going on.
Peter: Oh it’s very, very important, and it’s the easiest thing to do. It’s very, very healthy. And you naturally become a very useful citizen as far humanity and the animal world is concerned. Once you study yoga and become a yogi you automatically eat right, do right, serve others, and what was the saying, “love all serve all.” I once asked the Swami when I was taking a walk with him in Riverside Park, “Swami, tell me what is yoga really all about?” He said it was all about inner peace. I asked, “What do you mean?” He said, “We have nervous body and inside the nervous body there’s also a peaceful body. When learn how to live in the peaceful body then the nervous body goes away. Once you have achieved that then you can become a real yogi. Then you learn how to love all and serve all.” And that’s become our motto in my studio in Manhattan. We have 105 people at our studio and without me ever asking any of them to be vegetarian, I don’t do that…
Vrnda: Not like Paul McCartney.
Peter: I’m not an emotional pusher of my philosophy. I just do it for myself. The Swami always used to say, “do it by example.” But slowly my people have become vegetarians, maybe a third to half of them. And more than half do nice things for animals.
Vrnda: I really don’t think there is an argument for the other side. With Srila Prabhupada, I remember when people asked how to become a devotee he said that if you eat no meat, fish or eggs, take no intoxication or smoking, that only makes you human. You get to be human and then you can start doing all the rest of it. But unfortunately that’s our world isn’t it?
Peter: Yeah. Were locked in the middle of this big evolution…
Vrnda: Sometimes I get depressed, it looks so hopeless.
Peter: Yeah, it does look hopeless sometimes. These sweet animals live in a holocaust, so to speak, but people are waking up. Especially the young kids. They are telling their parents about separating the garbage, supporting industries that are healthy and don’t pollute. I think it’s all just a matter of time.
Vrnda: I got a surprise yesterday, my parents bought an electric car. They are in their seventies. I was so proud of them.
Peter: Wow an electric car. Isn’t that wonderful that is happening? How many miles to the gallon?
Vrnda: Fifty two. It’s a hybrid, a Toyota.
Peter: Right, so it’s partially gas. As you drive it also charges the battery. That’s great.
Vrnda: I know you knew George Harrison.
Peter: Yeah, I knew George very well. I used to go to a restaurant in Manhattan called Nirvana on Central Park South and Penthouse. It’s an Indian restaurant. One day I walked in and Shyamser Wadude, the owner says, “Peter, Peter, I have George Harrison here.” He introduced me and George and I spoke until two in the morning about swamis, yogis and that whole mess. We met a lot at that restaurant. Sometimes once a week. Sometimes twice a month, sometimes everyday when he was in New York. He was really the one who brought the Maharishi and Bhaktivedanta Swami to the Beatles.
Vrnda: George was great and we all miss him, but I’m really happy for him as I’m sure he’s happy where he is.
Peter: Yeah, he’s in a happy place.
Vrnda: One thing everyone keeps asking is why haven’t you done any full scale animation?
Peter: I have been offered to do animated films off and on from very big film companies but I thought a film would take maybe two years to make and their will be all these thousands of paintings I wont be able to do. So I’ve held off, but now the technology’s come right to my doorstep. Now with all these different software companies; there’s a thing called Discreet Logic, SGI, Sun Micro Systems. Its very, very simple. I may be doing an animated film that’s part animation, part documentary, part special effects. Last week we were talking to a producer about it.
Vrnda: I still have people asking whether or not you involved in the Beatles film, Yellow Submarine. Can you clear that up because obviously, the German artist Heinz Endelman was art director.
Peter: There was this fantastic producer called Al Brodax and John [Lennon] wanted me to do something with the Yellow Submarine itself so I gave it my styling. I gave it the look, but I didn’t actually have the time to do it. Back to animal rights for a sec, I think when people become involved in protecting animals, saving them and caring for them it really develops the compassionate heart. We can go on to endless proportions with that. People think, “well what about all the human beings” but when you protect an animal you are compassionate to human beings a hundred fold. So it’s all for human beings. Its for the world.
Vrnda: I think we can certainly all live and work together. I was wondering, there’s a lot of patriotism in some of your later work, and yet you’ve always seemed like a globalist type person.
Peter: I’m a globalist. I was raised in China. I spent a little time in India and Tibet as a child and came here when I was twelve. I’m very, very fond of America because of the freedoms we all have and how the whole world is interwoven into one county. You can walk out of my studio in Manhattan and stand there for forty five minutes and see eighty races walk by. Everybody from the Philippines, to the Chinese, the Jews, the blacks, the Portuguese, Germans and English, they all walk by in every direction. You’ve got the whole world living in America. Also it’s the most creative country because of that mixture. So we’re not only the most inventive, but also the most generous. Despite what’s going on, we are the most peace loving. American’s are the most fair, giving, and that’s what we are. Because of this creativity this is fertile ground for the ultimate creativity. Rock n’ roll, jazz, all the greatest music comes from here as well as all the best movies, ideas and concepts. We even invented (through Buck Rodgers) the feeling of outer space. Even though space existed far before we ever got there. The whole idea of democracy I like, where one day the whole world will vote for itself to live in peace. That’s why we invented the United Nations.
Vrnda: You have always been very generous with your time, money and talent. I wonder what is your philosophy of personal altruism?
Peter: I think it’s just to do a little something everyday for someone else. When you walk by people who are homeless you can just lean over and say few nice words maybe, or give them a few dollars, it starts like this. Just do a little bit. Help someone cross the street. Help somebody cross the river of their life. Take someone under your wing and help somebody out. People have done that with me to. People have shown me the way, Swami Satchitananada especially. Its an attribute. You make that something you do as part of your life. It’s just like breathing, and you will see that needs will be coming to you and they wont take anything from you. That’s the best part.
Vrnda: I just read a quote from Jack Nicholson and he’s totally the opposite. He sees a homeless person coming and he says to them give him some money. I wanted to ask you were your parents artistic and when did you first start getting into the arts?
Peter: Well, I was always an artist. My mother had this great gift, she was a fashion designer. We lived in Shanghai in a pagoda house with three balconies on all three sides of the house. She always used to set paints out on each balcony for me She would put colored pencils in a jar of one balcony. Paper and paint on another, and she would say to me, “now pick anyone you want or all three. Make a big mess and then we’ll clean up.”
She actually gave me the gift of freedom. I discovered that maybe five to seven years ago, I thought back to how that happened. I’ve never acknowledged her for it because my mom passed away fifteen years ago. Recently, I heard some woman tell a child, “now paint something. What are you going to paint? Make sure you don’t make a big mess. Make sure it’s all cleaned up. We don’t want to see any mess.” And I remember my mother especially telling me just the opposite.
Vrnda; Your work is wholly positive you’ve never created anything remotely dark or depressing. Why is that?
Peter: That’s my spirit. I’m positive and optimistic. It’s all about brightness. We are living in a euphoric world all we need to do is see it. I paint that. I don’t paint any depressing things because I’m never depressed. I’m tired, or I’m vital with energy, but I’m never depressed.
Vrnda: Thank you Peter for the many years of love and color you’ve given us.
Peter: Thank you Vrnda for the wonderful questions. I don’t often get them!
* * * *
PETER MAX is the brilliant graphic artist whose colorful, yogic inspired posters, illustrations and paintings have dazzled the world for the last four decades. He makes his home in New York. His famous studio is on Riverside Drive. He is also a longtime follower of the late Yoga master and founder of Integral Yoga Centers and Yogaville in rural Pennsylvania, Swami Satchitananda.
VRNDA DEVI is the author of several books on popular culture and music. Her latest work, a full color, oversized, hard bound vegetarian cookbook, Compassionate Cuisine
was published in 2004. She is herself a three decade plus vegetarian and ardent follower of Vedic philosophy as taught by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. She makes her home in Tampa, Florida.
Interview By Vrnda Devi
December 2005
Vrnda Devi: You became involved with the Indian master, Swami Satchitnanda in the 1960’s. How did you first meet him and what was your relationship with him like over the years?
Peter Max: I met him in Paris when I was asked to do a movie with a young man by the name of Connrad Rookes, who was the heir to Avon Cosmetics. The film was called Chapaqua. A fellow who was on his production team was a Peter Max fan. Anyway, I flew out to Paris at his request, and finally, I met the Swami. I saw his eyes and it was like “nobodies home” except an ocean of love, you know? It was a quietness he had inside. I fell in love with him and wanted him to come to America. I knew all of my friends would love him. We all did and he taught us yoga. How to breathe, how to be yogis, how to vegetarians, how to be in love with animal protection. So slowly the Integral Yoga Centers started opening up, 39 centers. It was only a handful of us in the beginning. We’d never done anything like this before. Some of us became very successful, some of us became swamis, and it’s still on going. Swamiji just passed away four months ago. On August 19th he died. He was 87.
Vrnda: I have a daughter that took iniation from Puri Maharaja from The Gaudiya Math of Puri, Orrssia, India, who was over one hundred years old and died just a couple of years ago. I also met Srila Prabhupada or A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.
Peter: Bhaktivedanta Swami? From the Hare Krishna Movement? I knew him. Oh yeah, he was wonderful and very good friends with Swami Satchitananda.
Vrnda: When he looked at you you felt he was right inside. It frightened me the first time. I think I ran away. It was so powerful.
Peter: Yeah, because it’s like there’s no opinion. All there was was you.
Vrnda: Peter, are you still a vegetarian?
Peter: I’m a vegan. When I’m at the easel it’s Peter Max the artist but when I walk away it’s Peter the animal protection person. I’ve gotten to really understand the spirit of animals. I have five cats at home and one of them has become so attached to me, she’s my little girl. Wherever I go she follows. All day long, if I’m home, she’s wherever I am. If I’m in bed she curls right up next to me. I’ve gotten to know her so well that now when I’m in the car and I see the electric wires and there’s birds on top I can see my little Gigi in the birds. You know what I mean? I can sense their little spirits. I got to know the spirit of a little bird, that could be a thousand feet away, because it reminds me of my cat. It’s a very nice thing to know the spirit of an animal.
Vrnda: I keep two pet cows to help teach with our vegetarian project. People see them and tell me, “Wow, I had no idea how beautiful and peaceful they are.” I have a lot of different animals.
Peter; Have you heard about the cow I saved awhile back?
Vrnda: No.
Peter: There was a cow in Cincinnati that jumped over a seven foot fence trying to escape slaughter. Poor thing. You heard about her?
Vrnda: I think I did. But I didn’t know you were involved.
Peter: I was in a post production house editing a video and my friend Greg Allen shows up and as he puts down his bag and gives me a guy hug he says to me, “Did you hear about the cow?’ I said, “What cow?” He says, “the cow in Cincinnati.” I thought he was going to tell me a joke maybe, but it turned out to be a real story. There was a cow in Cincinnati that jumped over a seven foot fence as all the cows before her were stunned and cut into pieces. She saw that. It happened so fast it was just a total freak out. She jumped over the lowest thing which was this fence. When she landed on the other side she fell on her face and hurt herself pretty badly but didn’t break any bones. She was all bruised and ran into the forest miles away. There were helicopters looking for her and the whole city of Cincinnati was up in arms trying to find her. I said, “Greggy, do me a favor. Get me somebody on the phone. So he gets on the computer and finds me a man who writes for the Cincinnati Post, his name was Barry Horseman. So Barry asked me, “Are you Peter Max the artist?” I said, “Yeah. I’m calling about the cow. I must, must, must, adopt this cow. You must let me have her. Whatever it takes!” To make a long story short, I spent the next 55 hours on the phone. About seven days, six seven hours a day. I was number seventy four in line for the cow but a lot of weird people wanted her. People wanted her for their backyard. The cow was wanted by zoos and circus’s and finally, on a Sunday night I got a call telling me that we got the cow. I then donated $180,000 in art to the SPCA of which we’ve sold $90,000 already. There is another $90,000 to go. Anybody who wants portrait that money can go to the SPCA. She’s gained 100 pounds. She’s the exact color of the beige on your dress. The whole cow is one beautiful beige. She’s a three and a half year old girl, and when you understand her plight, that she’s only a little girl, it makes you want to cry! If she were a puppy dog, or a little kitty you would hold her in your arms. She’s the sweetest thing. And the fact that we saved one out of the seven billion that are killed every year I think is great.
Vrnda: Exactly, but we have to start somewhere. I just don’t see how people can see cats and dogs are pets and this other “thing” as food. I don’t understand how they distinguish that. Obviously there is a major cultural disconnect in play somewhere.
Peter: Right, right!
Vrnda: So I try and keep a lot of animals, I love it and people enjoy coming to see them. I have a new cookbook out, Compassionate Cuisine. A vegetarian cookbook.
Peter: Oh nice!
Vrnda: It’s so important that we try and reach people. I just can’t figure out how they eat it.
Peter: It’s hard, but people are people. They eat it from birth so they have no idea it’s wrong. But then when they wake up, or perhaps have a change in their life, some people become vegetarian. They may still eat fish and egg whites. It’s a wonderful thing they have come that far. Then some people take the next step and become vegan. I personally find, even from a health point of view, when you become a vegan you get extremely calm and very healthy. I’ve been a vegan now for almost four years. Before that I was a fairly strict vegetarian but I used to eat egg whites and so forth, as well as stuff that was maybe cooked with butter, milk or eggs. Then I realized I wanted to be totally pure for my body. Then also for the animal’s sake, out of loyalty to the animals you know? I just don’t want to have anything in my body that comes from them.
Vrnda: Well, we take dairy products but only if they’re not commercially produced. Only from lifelong protected cows. All animals have to be protected! Do you consider yourself to be a follower of yogic philosophy and culture?
Peter: I’m a yogi. Yoga is not a religion and thank God, this way all religions are able to embrace yoga. When the Swami used to give seminars we’d have nuns attend, priests, rabbis and even Islamic clerics. They all studied yoga. It creates an inner peace in you. Yoga is over 8000 years old I understand. These yoga ashrams in India were used for people who sometimes were a little bit feisty. Or maybe someone had a son, or daughter, who was a bit nervous and couldn’t control their mood or their upsets. Then they’d go to the yoga ashram and through breathing they’d teach them how to be calm human beings. It’s a psychological training. So instead of going to a therapist in this country you do a little yoga. It’s the BEST therapy in the world!
Vrnda: It’s really important today with everything that’s going on.
Peter: Oh it’s very, very important, and it’s the easiest thing to do. It’s very, very healthy. And you naturally become a very useful citizen as far humanity and the animal world is concerned. Once you study yoga and become a yogi you automatically eat right, do right, serve others, and what was the saying, “love all serve all.” I once asked the Swami when I was taking a walk with him in Riverside Park, “Swami, tell me what is yoga really all about?” He said it was all about inner peace. I asked, “What do you mean?” He said, “We have nervous body and inside the nervous body there’s also a peaceful body. When learn how to live in the peaceful body then the nervous body goes away. Once you have achieved that then you can become a real yogi. Then you learn how to love all and serve all.” And that’s become our motto in my studio in Manhattan. We have 105 people at our studio and without me ever asking any of them to be vegetarian, I don’t do that…
Vrnda: Not like Paul McCartney.
Peter: I’m not an emotional pusher of my philosophy. I just do it for myself. The Swami always used to say, “do it by example.” But slowly my people have become vegetarians, maybe a third to half of them. And more than half do nice things for animals.
Vrnda: I really don’t think there is an argument for the other side. With Srila Prabhupada, I remember when people asked how to become a devotee he said that if you eat no meat, fish or eggs, take no intoxication or smoking, that only makes you human. You get to be human and then you can start doing all the rest of it. But unfortunately that’s our world isn’t it?
Peter: Yeah. Were locked in the middle of this big evolution…
Vrnda: Sometimes I get depressed, it looks so hopeless.
Peter: Yeah, it does look hopeless sometimes. These sweet animals live in a holocaust, so to speak, but people are waking up. Especially the young kids. They are telling their parents about separating the garbage, supporting industries that are healthy and don’t pollute. I think it’s all just a matter of time.
Vrnda: I got a surprise yesterday, my parents bought an electric car. They are in their seventies. I was so proud of them.
Peter: Wow an electric car. Isn’t that wonderful that is happening? How many miles to the gallon?
Vrnda: Fifty two. It’s a hybrid, a Toyota.
Peter: Right, so it’s partially gas. As you drive it also charges the battery. That’s great.
Vrnda: I know you knew George Harrison.
Peter: Yeah, I knew George very well. I used to go to a restaurant in Manhattan called Nirvana on Central Park South and Penthouse. It’s an Indian restaurant. One day I walked in and Shyamser Wadude, the owner says, “Peter, Peter, I have George Harrison here.” He introduced me and George and I spoke until two in the morning about swamis, yogis and that whole mess. We met a lot at that restaurant. Sometimes once a week. Sometimes twice a month, sometimes everyday when he was in New York. He was really the one who brought the Maharishi and Bhaktivedanta Swami to the Beatles.
Vrnda: George was great and we all miss him, but I’m really happy for him as I’m sure he’s happy where he is.
Peter: Yeah, he’s in a happy place.
Vrnda: One thing everyone keeps asking is why haven’t you done any full scale animation?
Peter: I have been offered to do animated films off and on from very big film companies but I thought a film would take maybe two years to make and their will be all these thousands of paintings I wont be able to do. So I’ve held off, but now the technology’s come right to my doorstep. Now with all these different software companies; there’s a thing called Discreet Logic, SGI, Sun Micro Systems. Its very, very simple. I may be doing an animated film that’s part animation, part documentary, part special effects. Last week we were talking to a producer about it.
Vrnda: I still have people asking whether or not you involved in the Beatles film, Yellow Submarine. Can you clear that up because obviously, the German artist Heinz Endelman was art director.
Peter: There was this fantastic producer called Al Brodax and John [Lennon] wanted me to do something with the Yellow Submarine itself so I gave it my styling. I gave it the look, but I didn’t actually have the time to do it. Back to animal rights for a sec, I think when people become involved in protecting animals, saving them and caring for them it really develops the compassionate heart. We can go on to endless proportions with that. People think, “well what about all the human beings” but when you protect an animal you are compassionate to human beings a hundred fold. So it’s all for human beings. Its for the world.
Vrnda: I think we can certainly all live and work together. I was wondering, there’s a lot of patriotism in some of your later work, and yet you’ve always seemed like a globalist type person.
Peter: I’m a globalist. I was raised in China. I spent a little time in India and Tibet as a child and came here when I was twelve. I’m very, very fond of America because of the freedoms we all have and how the whole world is interwoven into one county. You can walk out of my studio in Manhattan and stand there for forty five minutes and see eighty races walk by. Everybody from the Philippines, to the Chinese, the Jews, the blacks, the Portuguese, Germans and English, they all walk by in every direction. You’ve got the whole world living in America. Also it’s the most creative country because of that mixture. So we’re not only the most inventive, but also the most generous. Despite what’s going on, we are the most peace loving. American’s are the most fair, giving, and that’s what we are. Because of this creativity this is fertile ground for the ultimate creativity. Rock n’ roll, jazz, all the greatest music comes from here as well as all the best movies, ideas and concepts. We even invented (through Buck Rodgers) the feeling of outer space. Even though space existed far before we ever got there. The whole idea of democracy I like, where one day the whole world will vote for itself to live in peace. That’s why we invented the United Nations.
Vrnda: You have always been very generous with your time, money and talent. I wonder what is your philosophy of personal altruism?
Peter: I think it’s just to do a little something everyday for someone else. When you walk by people who are homeless you can just lean over and say few nice words maybe, or give them a few dollars, it starts like this. Just do a little bit. Help someone cross the street. Help somebody cross the river of their life. Take someone under your wing and help somebody out. People have done that with me to. People have shown me the way, Swami Satchitananada especially. Its an attribute. You make that something you do as part of your life. It’s just like breathing, and you will see that needs will be coming to you and they wont take anything from you. That’s the best part.
Vrnda: I just read a quote from Jack Nicholson and he’s totally the opposite. He sees a homeless person coming and he says to them give him some money. I wanted to ask you were your parents artistic and when did you first start getting into the arts?
Peter: Well, I was always an artist. My mother had this great gift, she was a fashion designer. We lived in Shanghai in a pagoda house with three balconies on all three sides of the house. She always used to set paints out on each balcony for me She would put colored pencils in a jar of one balcony. Paper and paint on another, and she would say to me, “now pick anyone you want or all three. Make a big mess and then we’ll clean up.”
She actually gave me the gift of freedom. I discovered that maybe five to seven years ago, I thought back to how that happened. I’ve never acknowledged her for it because my mom passed away fifteen years ago. Recently, I heard some woman tell a child, “now paint something. What are you going to paint? Make sure you don’t make a big mess. Make sure it’s all cleaned up. We don’t want to see any mess.” And I remember my mother especially telling me just the opposite.
Vrnda; Your work is wholly positive you’ve never created anything remotely dark or depressing. Why is that?
Peter: That’s my spirit. I’m positive and optimistic. It’s all about brightness. We are living in a euphoric world all we need to do is see it. I paint that. I don’t paint any depressing things because I’m never depressed. I’m tired, or I’m vital with energy, but I’m never depressed.
Vrnda: Thank you Peter for the many years of love and color you’ve given us.
Peter: Thank you Vrnda for the wonderful questions. I don’t often get them!
* * * *
PETER MAX is the brilliant graphic artist whose colorful, yogic inspired posters, illustrations and paintings have dazzled the world for the last four decades. He makes his home in New York. His famous studio is on Riverside Drive. He is also a longtime follower of the late Yoga master and founder of Integral Yoga Centers and Yogaville in rural Pennsylvania, Swami Satchitananda.
VRNDA DEVI is the author of several books on popular culture and music. Her latest work, a full color, oversized, hard bound vegetarian cookbook, Compassionate Cuisine
was published in 2004. She is herself a three decade plus vegetarian and ardent follower of Vedic philosophy as taught by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. She makes her home in Tampa, Florida.
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